King's Quest NEEDS to have deaths.

[Emily]

But I have serious issues with her game design style, which quite often delighted in being needlessly cruel to players.

Many of the elements that are now considered to be terrible gameplay conventions (random deaths, events that make the game unwinnable, etc.) were necessary at the time to make the games bigger and (ironically) more fun. When designers had very little to work with technology-wise (not much space, low screen resolutions, simplistic graphics), those were conventions that made the games longer and harder. I don't like them anymore, but I don't think their very existence proves that anyone who used them back in the day was a bad designer.

The AGI King's Quest I can be solved in about 15 minutes if you know what you're doing. Including elements like death, dead ends, and hideously unfair puzzles (Rumpelstiltskin anyone?) turned a relatively small game into one that took people months to figure out.

Also, Roberta didn't exactly invent these conventions. The text adventures that came before King's Quest used them, too. You can't fault her for designing the type of experience the audience at the time expected and that she herself had experienced in games she'd played and enjoyed.

[Lambonius]

I just don't see how having the main character vulnerable to dying is a bad gameplay convention. It exists in EVERY other major genre! Why is it only in adventure games (ironic, given the "adventure" part) that people want to say being able to die is a bad thing?

[MusicallyInspired]

Because LucasArts convinced everybody it was. I personally think they (along with Cyan and the Myst franchise) were major factors in making modern day adventures, well, boring. Yes, Telltale's games are much more stimulating than any other adventure today, but they still lack that sense of danger. And any sense of danger they try to instill just feels like a facade because there's absolutely NO WAY to fail in a Telltale game. Even Riven and Myst had bad endings. At least you could die in Indiana Jones, but only through the arcade sequences.

[der_ketzer]

Originally Posted by MusicallyInspired

Because LucasArts convinced everybody it was. I personally think they (along with Cyan and the Myst franchise) were major factors in making modern day adventures, well, boring.

Well at least you can get bad endings in every Myst game.

[MusicallyInspired]

I haven't completed Myst 3 and onward yet so I wasn't sure. But yeah, that's my point. There's always at least a sense of real danger of failure. That should exist in all games. Including adventures. Otherwise it's just a puzzle game and that's just not as interesting to me.

[Svengoolie]

The biggest thing keeping Telltale from greatness is the lack of ways to die in the games. There's never any fear in doing the wrong thing because you just can't mess the game up!

The classic King's Quest games (and all of Sierra's adventures for that matter) had so many ways to die. I'm not saying it needs to be as hard as the old games because obviously we're in a different era and you want everyone to be able to enjoy the story, but give us SOME sense of danger.

[Irishmile]

Totally they need to have deaths... but it should have a smart system and save your place....

But NO deadends.

[MusicallyInspired]

There needs to be more than deaths. There needs to be alternate bad endings. There basically needs to be consequences for actions/inactions and a resulting failure. There needs to be danger. (I'm not necessarily talking about dead ends)

I should say that I don't just want something that's basically a Telltale game with deaths. That wouldn't be any good either. That's no different than the game holding your hand all the way through like the current Telltale games do.

[Rather Dashing]

Originally Posted by Emily

Also, Roberta didn't exactly invent these conventions. The text adventures that came before King's Quest used them, too. You can't fault her for designing the type of experience the audience at the time expected and that she herself had experienced in games she'd played and enjoyed.

Exactly. Even if we entertain the notion that the LucasArts model of making Adventure games is inherently and objectively better in every way, and that they innovated the genre by removing all of the negative elements of it that were present in many of the day's Sierra adventures, Roberta can't be blamed for not innovating exactly the same way LucasArts did. I personally find the notion ridiculous, but even if we believe it, then she is at worst a product of her time. Even then, though, considering how many innovations appeared first in Roberta Williams games, I think she's paid her dues in terms of innovation and value to the computer gaming community, and the massive bitch-fest that surrounds her is extremely overblown, if not entirely undeserved.

[Scnew]

If it's King's Quest and I don't die a thousand different ways before I figure out how to solve it, I'm going to be very disappointed.

[Irishmile]

There WILL be deaths.. TTG is smart enough to know that the old games had them and that they need to be included... its not like they are afraid to kill the player... the Jurassic Park videos are proof of that.

[Woodsyblue]

I've said it before and I say it again, and this is coming from a LucasArts adventure game fanboy, Telltale need to follow the Sierra design philosophy when making King's Quest, and this means there needs to be deaths. They don't have to be unfair deaths necessarily, but if you are stupid enough wake the sleeping troll more than once then he is going to kill you.

They don't need to bring back deadends though, they're just a royal pain.

[MusicallyInspired]

My only worry is that they won't understand how to go about it given their expressed opinions on it and just throw deaths in any old way at all. But it seems like more people than just Dave Grossman (if he) will be involved, and the Telltale member that appears to be the one leading the project is a big fan. So....in short, we don't know.

[Andorxor]

And the game must delete parts of your hard-disc when you die

[Irishmile]

They could sell a peripheral device that punches you right in the testicles if you die....

[der_ketzer]

Originally Posted by Andorxor

And the game must delete parts of your hard-disc when you die

only parts? no it needs to format the whole thing.

[Simo Sakari Aaltonen]

Originally Posted by Woodsyblue

They don't need to bring back deadends though, they're just a royal pain.

Well put.

Originally Posted by der_ketzer

only parts? no it needs to format the whole thing.

Even better, it could downgrade the hardware to 1982 standards. Then you could not even play the original, first, classic, non-remade King's Quest. The ultimate dead end short of the big one.

[nikkko]

Originally Posted by GaryCXJk

There should be an Ironman mode, where you must play through the entire game without dying AND without saving (although savestate saving could be an option).

That's actually how I completed the CGA KQI 20+ years ago - I couldn't figure out how to switch floppies to save games, so I always played the game in a single session. Imagine the fun when you slip off the stairs or run into the dwarf after collecting all three treasures...

[nikkko]

Originally Posted by Simo Sakari Aaltonen

Even better, it could downgrade the hardware to 1982 standards. Then you could not even play the original, first, classic, non-remade King's Quest. The ultimate dead end short of the big one.

It should do what the slot machine does to Roger Wilco in SQI - that would be a real DEAD end.

[Simo Sakari Aaltonen]

Thanks for playing King's Quest... next time, be more careful!

Whoops, our mistake - there won't BE a next time!