The DeLorean explanation (merged threads)

[Bonito]

Originally Posted by markeres

There were only two other possible explanations for the reappearance of the DeLorean: either Doc took it from some point in the movies' timeline, or he built a new one. The former would have created a paradox no matter when he took the DeLorean from. It would have been implausible, and would not have worked within the logic of the films.

I don't think it would necessarily cause a paradox if Doc obtained the DeLorean from somewhere in the movies' timeline. We could say that when old Biff originally traveled back to 1955, gave the sports Almanac to his younger self, then returned to 2015, this should have caused a paradox because an alternate 2015 should have transformed around Marty and Doc while they were still there (in these circumstances 1985 Doc was committed, so he could not physically be in 2015 at that point with Marty). Instead, old Biff seemingly comes back to the regular 2015 before it changes to alternate 2015.

If old Biff took the Delorean away from normal 2015 and returned to alternate 2015 instead, it should create a similar paradox as the one you're talking about because he'd be returning the time machine to a different year than the one Marty and Doc are located in. But the exact way in which the future timeline adapts after specific events take place in the past has always been kept intentionally vague in the films. It has not really been established how fast changes can occur across the timeline.

Going by this particular incident, it would seem that Biff arrived back in regular 2015, instead of alternate 2015, and there was some kind of delay/buffer effect implied before 2015 transformed into a corrupt 2015. This phenomena seems to guard against paradoxes for a short while. Going by this logic, it's entirely plausible to suggest that in this game, Doc could have taken the Delorean that Marty hid behind the sign in 1955 or the one hidden in the Mine, as long as he put it back exactly as he found it. According to established canon, the timeline would allow Doc some buffer space to take and return the Delorean before a paradox occurred.

Originally Posted by markeres

The latter many here (Origami most vocally) felt would have been a bigger cop out and "lazier" writing than the temporal duplicate explanation. So the fanbase, on this forum anyway, was already divided 50/50 about which explanation would be better. Telltale and Bob Gale actually had the audacity to think up an explanation that was intended to (but apparently did not) appease both those who wanted it to be a new DeLorean, and those who wanted the old DeLorean, since it's a little bit of both (a new version of the old DeLorean).

Well, if such a lazy "cop out" doesn't contradict canon, doesn't seem like an absurdly ridiculous explanation, and doesn't introduce the potential for physical clones (not just multiple versions of the same person in different time eras, but TWO actual physical, living and breathing Doc Browns), I'll take that lazy writing cop-out any day over this temporal duplicate nonsense!

My point is that even if it's considered lazy writing to have Doc invent a new Delorean Time Machine, at least 100% of the fan base could still accept that explanation as canon, regardless of how unoriginal it is. But is it really that important if this one (optional dialogue) part of the game is considered lazy writing? I mean surely the collective content and adventures spanned across the games is where the writing really counts. In my mind, it's better to play it safe with such 'lazy' writing than try to get too clever and make a complete mess of established canon and rules along the way. I want to like this game, but when they do this kind of thing, it makes me want to disregard it as an official continuation of the trilogy. That's how much of an issue this is to some people.

Originally Posted by markeres

If the dream sequence was what was actually happening, none of the events in the game would be possible, since Doc disappeared and Marty would have never traveled through time in the first place.

Maybe. Or maybe not. I can think of at least one scenario that would work in making this scene a reality if the delay/buffer effect of the timeline I mentioned above is considered canon.

Originally Posted by markeres

And I don't see what the problem with adding new information to how time travel works to the established canon is, as long as it doesn't contradict established canon. Which the temporal duplication explanation does not, since you can still watch the trilogy and everything within it is still coherent without even having to think about temporal duplication.

The problem, to me at least, is that it feels cheap and tacky. Like a dirty sucker punch. It seems like the duplication explanation was added as a band-aid solution, simply because they didn't want to put more thought into tying it into the established rules of the films, or because they wanted to provide this specific explanation because it aids some future plot device they have planned.

True, introducing new information about temporal duplication may not break the canon of the films, but neither would including a new plot device about an electric eel that can shock the car into temporal displacement, or a bunch of Michael Keaton clones that could help Doc make multiple Deloreans in a single day. Back to the Future has always had a specific meticulous "feel" and there are certain things that just don't seem right if added into the universe. The temporal duplication scenario feels like one of those things.

[Shadowknight1]

Yeah, there might not be a paradox if Doc "borrowed" a DeLorean. But Doc would NOT take that chance. There would always be a chance that something bad would happen to the DeLorean and he wouldn't be able to return it, which would cause a paradox.

And I grow tired of re-using my same very LOGICAL APPROACH to this. I'm this close to just copying a quote of my posts and using them every time someone accuses this explanation of being nonsense.

[Bonito]

Well, Doc could have taken the Delorean from a previous time, cloned it manually (and quickly) in some future year when mechanical cloning technology is readily available, so that he didn't have to go to the effort of building a new DeLorean Time Machine from scratch, and then just returned the original Delorean back to where he got it with minimal risk.

Honestly, any plausible explanation like this would be better than the crummy lighting bolt duplication one that we got!

[Shadowknight1]

It's NOT the lightning itself that duplicated the time machine. Doc simplified the explanation because Marty's not exactly the most scientific mind in the world. The gigawatt overload that went through the flux capacitor caused the duplication, not lightning hitting the car.

[Bonito]

It doesn't really matter what caused the impromptu duplication. Whether Doc provided the most scientific/unscientific explanation in the world, or if Thor himself caused the gigawatt overload using a lighting bolt from his fingertips, duplication is a sucky concept. For example, how many potential self-replicating Deloreans, Docs, and Martys are located across the timeline now as a result of this newly added post-trilogy information? It's an awful explanation if you ask me.

I just think that creating something from nothing is a lazy and uninspired way to explain the existence a critical item of importance like the DeLorean.

[Shadowknight1]

Let's see...how many time machines have been struck by lightning? Oh, right. ONE.

[darkdefender85]

A simpler explanation is that he just built a new one...

[markeres]

Bonito, since you dislike the temporal duplication explanation so much, I don't think we're ever going to see eye to eye on it, so I doubt it's much use to argue its merits with you. I will, however, attempt to address some of your specific points.

Originally Posted by Bonito

Going by this logic, it's entirely plausible to suggest that in this game, Doc could have taken the Delorean that Marty hid behind the sign in 1955 or the one hidden in the Mine, as long as he put it back exactly as he found it. According to established canon, the timeline would allow Doc some buffer space to take and return the Delorean before a paradox occurred.

There are two kinds of "ripple effects" in the BTTF movies: the immediate fade and the "slow fade" (or the "buffer effect", as you call it). The immediate fade happens when a time travler does something that changes the future with 100% certainty. For example, Marty burning the almanac in 1955 prevents 1985A from ever occuring, so the matchbook and newspapers immediately change. The "slow fade" happens whenever a time traveler does something that changes the future with less than 100% certainty. For example, Marty pushing George out of the way of the car, preventing his parents from meeting. The picture of him and his siblings starts to slowly fade as the probability of their conception decreases, but it is not immediately 100% certain that they will never be conceived. If post-trilogy Doc were to go in his time train to any point in the trilogy's timeline and take the DeLorean, for any length of time, this would cause an immediate change. Trilogy-era Marty and/or Doc would be stranded whenever they are, with no way to get back to 1985, and thus, no way for Doc to go back and take the DeLorean in the first place. It's a paradox. Doc "intending" to put the DeLorean back makes no difference to the timeline. The absence or time displacement of a DeLorean changes things immediately, and simply would not allow the events of the game to happen.

Originally Posted by Bonito

In my mind, it's better to play it safe with such 'lazy' writing than try to get too clever and make a complete mess of established canon and rules along the way.

Again, people keep saying this, but I just don't get it. How does the temporal duplication explanation affect already established canon, in any way? Other than adding new information to it, I mean.

Originally Posted by Bonito

The problem, to me at least, is that it feels cheap and tacky. Like a dirty sucker punch. It seems like the duplication explanation was added as a band-aid solution, simply because they didn't want to put more thought into tying it into the established rules of the films

This is where we fundamentally disagree. I feel the explanation is clever and inventive, and that they actually put a lot of thought into it.

Originally Posted by Bonito

Back to the Future has always had a specific meticulous "feel" and there are certain things that just don't seem right if added into the universe. The temporal duplication scenario feels like one of those things.

The DeLorean friggin' flew. And so did a train, for that matter. Temporal duplication seems no more ridiculous or out of place in the BTTF universe to me than a flying DeLorean or a flying train.

Originally Posted by Bonito

Well, Doc could have taken the Delorean from a previous time, cloned it manually (and quickly) in some future year when mechanical cloning technology is readily available, so that he didn't have to go to the effort of building a new DeLorean Time Machine from scratch, and then just returned the original Delorean back to where he got it with minimal risk.

Wait, so random, futuristic car cloning technology makes more sense to you than temporal duplication?

Originally Posted by Bonito

For example, how many potential self-replicating Deloreans, Docs, and Martys are located across the timeline now as a result of this newly added post-trilogy information?

Now? One DeLorean, one Marty, and one Doc (that we know of). The other DeLorean was destroyed, Marty was never in a DeLorean affected by jigowatt overload, and if Doc was duplicated, DoubleDoc either is unimportant to the story or he met some grisly demise. And the DeLorean isn't self-replicating. Doc can't send himself to two places at once at will. Assuming he still hasn't stabilized the time circuits, the DeLorean would have to be struck by lightning again and suffer another jigowatt overload.

Originally Posted by Bonito

I just think that creating something from nothing is a lazy and uninspired way to explain the existence a critical item of importance like the DeLorean.

What, like random, futuristic car cloning technology?

[Shadowknight1]

I suppose I may be biased since...well, I was the first one to even think of this possibility. But I too believe that it's far more clever than just saying he built a new one.

[Geniva]

I don't know if this has been answered yet, but... if the DeLorean duplicated, and the 2025 one didn't have Doc in it, what prevented it's "Auto-Retreval" function from activating and picking up Marty in 1986? Or was this added after Doc picked it up? If it was, wouldn't that mean if an accident like this ever happened again, the duplicate would automatically travel to Marty after some time?

Maybe the duplicated Doc from 2025 never helped Marty in 1955 because he somehow discovered his 1885 counterpart already helped him. Or rather than somehow, he had no way of predicting what his 1885 version could or would do - and elected to stay in 2025 and never travel again?

[Shadowknight1]

The auto retrieval is a new function, one of Doc's new "bells and whistles."

[daeva0123]

Thats another thing, say for instance another explanation was given for the existence of a new Delorean and everyone was satisfied (impossible i know but stay with me ) people would end up being annoyed just as much over the idea of the Delorean having the ability to appear any place at any time without any need for getting the car up to 88 - just like it NEVER did in the films.

I think the duplication idea needs a chance to play out, to me its still a neat idea with a decent explanation but thats ALL it is at the moment which is why it feels cheap to some.

Who knows it may be all be a necessary diversion by Doc to keep Marty from discovering something

[Origami]

I think what sits wrong with most people is not the theory, but the explanation from Doc.
So TellTale just needs to flesh it out more and maybe confront us with the problems that happens with a duplicated DeLorean.

[Shadowknight1]

daeva0123, Doc wouldn't have a reason to hide something from Marty in the case of the DeLorean. It's a car made into a time machine. No reason to hide anything. And why do people assume that the DeLorean jumped from one spot in Hill Valley to another without getting up to 88 mp/h? Doc programmed it to go to those coordinates, meaning it probably was programmed to travel to Doc's house in the dead of night and hit 88 mp/h to travel to 1986.

[markeres]

Originally Posted by Shadowknight1

And why do people assume that the DeLorean jumped from one spot in Hill Valley to another without getting up to 88 mp/h? Doc programmed it to go to those coordinates, meaning it probably was programmed to travel to Doc's house in the dead of night and hit 88 mp/h to travel to 1986.

Yes. You can hear the tires screeching to a halt when the DeLorean arrives at the end of the Doc's Lab scene.

[OMA]

I have a little question about the time travelling train, though it's not directly related with the game...

In 1885 Doc didn't have access to the parts necessary to repair his DeLorean, so how did he manage to build a brand new time travelling train? If he can't get the few materials to repair the DeLorean in 1885, then he is even less likely to have all the parts required to build a new time machine, even if the train was made from scraps of the wrecked train

[Chyron8472]

I admit that I have been warming up to the temporal clone explanation given in the game. It's inventive; it changes nothing overt about the story told in the trilogy; it allows those who hold sentimental attachment to a specific DeLorean (ie. they love the old one) to transfer such feelings to this one since it technically is the old one; and it gives us fans something additional to talk and argue about in keeping with how we argue about the science or contradictions of the films.

Sure, I would have also accepted a new DeLorean if that's what Doc said had happened (which is what I originally thought would happen since it was the only idea that made sense to me at the time,) but this temporal clone idea works, and it's definitely growing on me.


Also, I wasn't sure how it would work to create two objects of matter from one original one without having to expend enormous amounts of energy to do so, though the Star Trek-esque quantum duplicate theory someone previously mentioned also works, I guess... actually, as I write this I wonder just how much energy was transferred to the DeLorean from the lightning strike (since none was visibly transferred all the way to the ground,) versus how much is required to duplicate the DeLorean.


Further I really do wonder a lot about the existence of a duplicate Doc. I imagine if there is one, that he would have laid low and tried not to corrupt the timeline, only to have his DeLorean stolen by the Doc we do know about and become stranded in the future forever (or unless the game story visits him later.)

[markeres]

Originally Posted by OMA

I have a little question about the time travelling train, though it's not directly related with the game...

In 1885 Doc didn't have access to the parts necessary to repair his DeLorean, so how did he manage to build a brand new time travelling train? If he can't get the few materials to repair the DeLorean in 1885, then he is even less likely to have all the parts required to build a new time machine, even if the train was made from scraps of the wrecked train

There seems to be some agreement that Doc used the walkie-talkie and Hoverboard left behind to make the parts necessary for the train to travel through time.

[Shadowknight1]

Originally Posted by markeres

There seems to be some agreement that Doc used the walkie-talkie and Hoverboard left behind to make the parts necessary for the train to travel through time.

The circuitry in those would be fairly helpful in creating at least rudimentary time circuits. And then he went further ahead to get everything else he needs.

[OMA]

Originally Posted by markeres

There seems to be some agreement that Doc used the walkie-talkie and Hoverboard left behind to make the parts necessary for the train to travel through time.

Really? When was that agreement reached?

So just some chips from a walkie talkie and the hoverboard were enough to construct a new time machine? That doesn't sound very plausible. Even within the movie's fantasy.

Originally Posted by Shadowknight1

The circuitry in those would be fairly helpful in creating at least rudimentary time circuits. And then he went further ahead to get everything else he needs.

Where did he get everything else?