Was anyone else disappointed with Season 3's ending? (SPOILERS)

[Soultaker]

Dammit, I wanted to weigh in on the discussion but I recall far too little of the plot to make sense of what you are talking about! I guess I have to replay the season (or at least the last episode) to go into details.

However, even if I don't recall the particulars, I do remember that I very much enjoyed season 3, including the dramatic ending, which I feel compelled to point out with all the complaining going on in the forums.

(Also, I don't think Max can be described as particularly good or evil: he seems mostly amoral. I don't think it was out of character for him to save somebody he liked; it seemed like something he might do on a whim.)

[coolguy721]

The ending definitely could have been better

[Superninfreak]

Originally Posted by Fly

I saw the point of the scene as showing that Max is just as capable of acts of random goodness and kindness as he is of random evil and mayhem. He's all id - I don't buy that he rationalised the act at all. He just arbitrarily decided to Save Sybil, and so for that moment all he could think about was saving Sybil, and it came from the same thought processes that lead to him arbitrarily deciding to torture someone. Max isn't good or bad, or even selfish or unselfish. He's just impulse.

There's a little bit of this characterisation in the comics, in Beast from the Cereal Isle (which I'd guess is the main influence on Devil's Playhouse). Right at the end of the story, a kid falls off the Beast, and Max, without breaking conversation, catches him and sets him back on the ride. He's not really paying attention to what he's doing - he just instinctively decided to help the kid, and so he did.

This is a good explanation, actually.

I was still disappointed by that part of the ending, but your interpretation helps.

[enkephalin07]

Well, ended on a Deus Ex Machina, which isn't necessarily inappropriate for the series. The whole credit sequence forcing us to accept that the Max we've followed up to now is truly dead -- that was a deeper punch in the gut than one would expect from a so-far comical series. A good Season 4 might make up for it, but lacking that Sam and Max is closing on a sour note that recolors the entire trilogy.

[Terrible Tony]

Originally Posted by enkephalin07

Well, ended on a Deus Ex Machina, which isn't necessarily inappropriate for the series. The whole credit sequence forcing us to accept that the Max we've followed up to now is truly dead -- that was a deeper punch in the gut than one would expect from a so-far comical series. A good Season 4 might make up for it, but lacking that Sam and Max is closing on a sour note that recolors the entire trilogy.

TTG injected a heart-crushing downer of a dramatic ending into absolutely the wrong game series. It was terribly out of character for the Sam & Max games and fiction, and to be honest, I'm very wary about playing any future TTG S&M games.

[DAISHI]

I thought the ending rocked.

[Truskenite]

I wasn't disappointed with the ending's theme itself. Both Sam and Max received quite a bit of character development throughout this season, Max in particular going through the usual "with great power comes great responsibility" deal. A sacrificial ending seemed fitting. Unfortunately, it still seemed a bit shaky and way too deus ex machina, even for Sam & Max. Maybe it was the lack of a climactic final showdown, what with the 'main villain' doing a complete 180 right at the very end. I dunno, I just felt better about Episode 4's ending, before Max became all monstery, of course. Seemed much more in line with Sam and Max in general.

[Jake]

Some of my favorite bits in the Sam & Max comics are when Sam and Max are super threatened or get separated and lose each other (both happen a few times in Monkeys Violating the Heavenly Temple, Auntie Alice genuinely freaked me out in On the Road, and obviously Max getting zapped into oblivion in Bad Day on the Moon is the textbook example), and most of the stories end with crazy deus ex machinas (the cult leader spontaneously combusting saves them from volcano sacrifice in Monkeys Violating the Heavenly Temple, Squiddo our octopus pal comes out of the sea and saves them from the pirates in On the Road, the Rubber Pants Commandos crash through the ceiling in Night of the Gilded Heron Shark to save Sam & Max from Mack Salmon, to name a few) -- when there are bits of contrast like that, of genuine fear or genuine loss, it makes all the regular flippant Sam & Max stuff resonate a lot more strongly to me, and the deus ex machinas are just trademark Sam & Max storytelling -- so I was beyond pleased that we could close the season out with a big version of both those things.

It felt like a valid choice to me since, at least in my experience playing it, the season ended up dealing a lot with the nature of Sam & Max's friendships, and accidentally with their personalities underneath their veneer (303 for whatever faults it had, I thought did a great job with that, with the first half of the episode focusing on Sam without Max, and the second half including a lot of Max having to be self reliant for the first time). I don't know how on purpose that was, but it ended up coming up again and again in the season, so closing on a big version of that felt like an okay thing to do. I think we expected it to play as more over the top/gratuitous than it did, though, as a lot of people were bothered by it either positively (as in, were genuinely emotionally effected by it, which wasn't expected*), or negatively (felt that we didn't earn it**, or that it was inappropriate, or a cop out), but I'm still proud that we made the choice to go for it.


* but which is okay!

** also a totally fair opinion to have!

[Flyingman356]

Originally Posted by Terrible Tony

TTG injected a heart-crushing downer of a dramatic ending into absolutely the wrong game series. It was terribly out of character for the Sam & Max games and fiction, and to be honest, I'm very wary about playing any future TTG S&M games.

That was what made it so powerful and moving. I'm sorry, maybe you just can't take emotional storytelling, but it was beautiful.

Originally Posted by Superninfreak

Let me just start by saying that while I haven't posted much, I love Sam and Max. Some episodes (S1E4, S1E5, and S2E4 especially) were just brilliant. I also loved Season 3.

Until I got to the ending that is.

I had two major problems with it.

1. Max went completely out of character. After Max has been built up as evil for the entire series, it's not believable that he would die just so Sybil wouldn't have to give birth outside of a hospital. I don't think Max would even care if Sybil died, honestly.

2. Girl Stinky died despite the fact that she's alive in the future. This was a pretty glaring plot hole.


The worst part about it though is that I can SEE a brilliant ending in Season 3. Had they not made those mistakes, I would want that to be the finale of everything Sam and Max, just because of how beautiful an ending it would have been.

#1 could have easily been fixed if it were Sam who Max died for instead of Sybil. Sam is the only person I think Max would die for, and it would still get across the point that Max isn't completely irredeemable.

So yeah, thoughts?

The future changed. When does that happen? Time travel. I'm thinking Skunkape is from some distant future, and he used time travel to return to a point where the toys of power were still intact and obtainable. It's a theory, and it doesn't solve anything, but you know. A possibility. This caused most of the events of Season 3 when you think about it.

[Falanca]

Originally Posted by Truskenite

A sacrificial ending seemed fitting. Unfortunately, it still seemed a bit shaky and way too deus ex machina, even for Sam & Max.

Yeah, I don't agree with that, for reasons that Jake has listed through. If anything a sacrificial ending may come too clichéd and maybe too subtle (any subtlety in a Sam and Max storyline is too much) as a whole, to be used in a game related to Sam and Max. I can also say the deus ex machina was implemented TOO good and actually did make sense, which is ironically a bad thing for THIS franchise, I guess.

I had no big problems with the ending though. The whole main storyline just made more sense than the ones we sat through in previous seasons, except for the Girl Stinky subplot which was... Okay well, Girl Stinky subplot may be classified as a Sam&Max-ish storytelling, with all loose ends and weird revealizations. The problem with THAT is; it was like that UNINTENTIONALLY, and storyline itself was too busy getting adjusted into the sensible direction (yes, I just called a mermaid going out with a giant cockroach SENSIBLE) instead of using the joke opportunities OR better yet; going for creating joke opportunities -like Sam and Max always did for, like, uh, always.

[Nintendo Boy1]

Originally Posted by Superninfreak

2. Girl Stinky died despite the fact that she's alive in the future. This was a pretty glaring plot hole.

I believe that Skunkape clones himself, girl stinky, and I'm guessing SamunMak; (possibly Sal) sometime in the future. I got that from this

[Scnew]

It's not like Sam and Max is the kind of super serious setting where it would be that difficult for them to bring Girl Stinky back somehow.

[crfh]

The ending was awesome in all fronts.

[Terrible Tony]

Originally Posted by Flyingman356

That was what made it so powerful and moving. I'm sorry, maybe you just can't take emotional storytelling, but it was beautiful.

The expectation of snide insults like this is exactly why I didn't comment on the ending when the game came out.

I can definitely take emotional storytelling. I just don't tune into Sam & Max to get it. I tune into Sam & Max for chaotic, irreverent slapstick and high-speed absurdity.

Telltale's otherwise done a good job of infusing an actual, gripping plot into the episodes without losing touch with the spirit of S&M, but the end of season three, IMHO, strayed too far from the tone which is the entire appeal of Sam & Max.

[crfh]

But why is it out of place? I take the comics as the basic Sam and Max canon, and there HAVE been serious moments there, even if they have been brief. The emotional aspect of the ending was not over the top, corny, or excessively melodramatic.

[Bloody Eugene]

Originally Posted by Jake

I don't know how on purpose that was, but it ended up coming up again and again in the season, so closing on a big version of that felt like an okay thing to do. I think we expected it to play as more over the top/gratuitous than it did, though, as a lot of people were bothered by it either positively (as in, were genuinely emotionally effected by it, which wasn't expected*), or negatively (felt that we didn't earn it**, or that it was inappropriate, or a cop out), but I'm still proud that we made the choice to go for it.

The ending is something that elevates the game to the best Sam&Max game IMHO.
So deeply emotional, asbolutely poetic, and not usual.
Thank you TT for this.

[Superninfreak]

Originally Posted by Jake

Some of my favorite bits in the Sam & Max comics are when Sam and Max are super threatened or get separated and lose each other (both happen a few times in Monkeys Violating the Heavenly Temple, Auntie Alice genuinely freaked me out in On the Road, and obviously Max getting zapped into oblivion in Bad Day on the Moon is the textbook example), and most of the stories end with crazy deus ex machinas (the cult leader spontaneously combusting saves them from volcano sacrifice in Monkeys Violating the Heavenly Temple, Squiddo our octopus pal comes out of the sea and saves them from the pirates in On the Road, the Rubber Pants Commandos crash through the ceiling in Night of the Gilded Heron Shark to save Sam & Max from Mack Salmon, to name a few) -- when there are bits of contrast like that, of genuine fear or genuine loss, it makes all the regular flippant Sam & Max stuff resonate a lot more strongly to me, and the deus ex machinas are just trademark Sam & Max storytelling -- so I was beyond pleased that we could close the season out with a big version of both those things.

It felt like a valid choice to me since, at least in my experience playing it, the season ended up dealing a lot with the nature of Sam & Max's friendships, and accidentally with their personalities underneath their veneer (303 for whatever faults it had, I thought did a great job with that, with the first half of the episode focusing on Sam without Max, and the second half including a lot of Max having to be self reliant for the first time). I don't know how on purpose that was, but it ended up coming up again and again in the season, so closing on a big version of that felt like an okay thing to do. I think we expected it to play as more over the top/gratuitous than it did, though, as a lot of people were bothered by it either positively (as in, were genuinely emotionally effected by it, which wasn't expected*), or negatively (felt that we didn't earn it**, or that it was inappropriate, or a cop out), but I'm still proud that we made the choice to go for it.


* but which is okay!

** also a totally fair opinion to have!

I wasn't bothered by the choice to be dramatic (though some other people were), I think for the most part things were handled quite well in Season 3.

It's just that a couple things (particularly the fact that Max died for Sybil of all people) bothered me.

I think I just get upset when something comes so close to being brilliant but is held back by a couple little things.

Anyway, I'm kind of surprised someone from Telltale posted to give such a humble response.

[Jake]

Originally Posted by Superninfreak

I wasn't bothered by the choice to be dramatic (though some other people were), I think for the most part things were handled quite well in Season 3.

It's just that a couple things (particularly the fact that Max died for Sybil of all people) bothered me.

I think I just get upset when something comes so close to being brilliant but is held back by a couple little things.

Anyway, I'm kind of surprised someone from Telltale posted to give such a humble response.

I think part of your issue with all of it might be that you're reading Max as being "evil" for the whole series. Was that the case? To me it seemed like Max was being built up as a force which could destroy itself and those near it; so, a strong damaging force yes, but not necessarily a malevolent or malicious one. Maybe that's too nuanced, or I'm totally off base? I don't know.

The way I see Max at least, I know he revels in screwing with people, and that he's generally just a bundle of id, but I don't think he ever wants to hurt people if he thinks they don't deserve it. He'll ploink a purse snatcher in the eyes and pull out a clump of his hair and maybe an eyebrow, but the lady who was being robbed won't suffer a scratch. (She may suffer the unshakeable trauma of watching a crazy 3 foot tall lagomorph leap into the air, scream "booga booga!" and turn some dude inside out (metaphorically speaking), and Max might get some glee from that knowledge, but that would be the extent of it.)

Maybe the turn at the end of 305 was too abrupt (though it was deliberately abrupt, it may have gone too far), I think it still played fair, in that while Max is always a chaotic force of destruction and general gnawing on things, he's always aimed more or less in the direction of Justice and Truth and Stopping Bad Guys (or at least whoever falls into his personal definition of People Who Deserve It). When Sam says "there's still some of Max in there, I know it," he's quoting Star Wars, but also I think he's right -- the Max he knows wouldn't blow up a friend, unless they were really asking for it. I don't know why Sybil in particular was chosen, other than the fact that she was the last one talking (and has a baby), but I was personally glad that a specific non-Sam character was chosen. We all know Max will save Sam. Max giving a crap about anyone else makes it a more interesting test. Again, maybe "a more interesting test" makes it less "Sam & Max," but I was glad it went somewhere unexpected, even if it didn't fully work for everyone.

[Gman5852]

Originally Posted by Jake

I think part of your issue with all of it might be that you're reading Max as being "evil" for the whole series. Was that the case? To me it seemed like Max was being built up as a force which could destroy itself and those near it; so, a strong damaging force yes, but not necessarily a malevolent or malicious one. Maybe that's too nuanced, or I'm totally off base? I don't know.

The way I see Max at least, I know he revels in screwing with people, and that he's generally just a bundle of id, but I don't think he ever wants to hurt people if he thinks they don't deserve it. He'll ploink a purse snatcher in the eyes and pull out a clump of his hair and maybe an eyebrow, but the lady who was being robbed won't suffer a scratch. (She may suffer the unshakeable trauma of watching a crazy 3 foot tall lagomorph leap into the air, scream "booga booga!" and turn some dude inside out (metaphorically speaking), and Max might get some glee from that knowledge, but that would be the extent of it.)

Maybe the turn at the end of 305 was too abrupt (though it was deliberately abrupt, it may have gone too far), I think it still played fair, in that while Max is always a chaotic force of destruction and general gnawing on things, he's always aimed more or less in the direction of Justice and Truth and Stopping Bad Guys (or at least whoever falls into his personal definition of People Who Deserve It). When Sam says "there's still some of Max in there, I know it," he's quoting Star Wars, but also I think he's right -- the Max he knows wouldn't blow up a friend, unless they were really asking for it. I don't know why Sybil in particular was chosen, other than the fact that she was the last one talking (and has a baby), but I was personally glad that a specific non-Sam character was chosen. We all know Max will save Sam. Max giving a crap about anyone else makes it a more interesting test. Again, maybe "a more interesting test" makes it less "Sam & Max," but I was glad it went somewhere unexpected, even if it didn't fully work for everyone.

Thats what made it more emotional. Max is violant to those that deserve it(he ripped the head off someone in hit the road's begining) but never to those that dont deserve it(then again he did willingly shoot sam for no reason in episode 102).
I was basicaly shouting at the computer "WHAT DID HE DO TO DESERVE THIS" when I watched as their was no hope for his survival.
Great ending telltale, a little deues ex michanimaie with the "oh he was time traveling, there was another max" thing, which is my complaint, but sam and max has done that before.

[DAISHI]

The appearance of alternate time Max is not truly a deus ex machina if you consider the overall series as opposed to just the season.