Old memories vs. New memories

[sn939]

This thread is for people who believe that time traveller's will eventually 'regain' their memories of 'newer' timelines (for eg. TP Marty would eventually gain the memories of living with a successful family in the LP timeline)

While I believe they will have their memories of both (or more) timelines, I'm at a bit of a loss to explain which set of memories would be dominant, and which 'version' would the time traveller consider himself.

There have been many mechanisms to explain the memory issue-one is that everytime the 'new version' of the time traveller goes back, his memory is replaced by the earliest version to make the trip...so he is essentially (retroactively) the 'new version' all along, albeit with old memories, and eventually, he will gain back his 'real memories', and he would thus essentially consider himself the 'new version'.

However, there is another theory (which is actually closer to what I believe) that when the 'new' version of the time traveller goes back, he is erased from existence...the old one re-appears from the original timeline, and later returns to the 'revised' timeline, gradually gaining the memories of the 'erased' alternate self....in which case, the original memories may well remain dominant.

So I'm curious to see what opinions would be on this issue, and whether we ultimately end up with LP/Eastwood Marty, or TP Marty with LP/Eastwood memories?

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

The original memories. In the 'hill valley burned down' timeline, edna seems to remember the previous timeline (including Emmett) even though from her perspective, that timeline has been destroyed for 55 years.

[sn939]

Originally Posted by Michael J Fox is Canadian

The original memories. In the 'hill valley burned down' timeline, edna seems to remember the previous timeline (including Emmett) even though from her perspective, that timeline has been destroyed for 55 years.

Fair enough. I must clarify that this thread is based on the fundamental assumptions that the time traveller's would have BOTH sets of memories...its just a question of which one is dominant.

So, by extension, as per your viewpoint, Marty would predominantly remember the TP timeline (which does work with what we see in the games)

[bttf4444]

I think that, eventually, the time traveller's memories of the new timeline would be more dominant. Actually, the end of Part III sort of supports my theory - when he commented that his family was "back to normal". My theory is that TP Marty and LP Marty fuse into one person.

Let's consider this scenario:

Somehow, TP George ends up going back to 1955 with Marty. TP George just stays at Doc's mansion, while Marty does all the work of getting his parents to meet. Other than TP George being at Doc's mansion, the events of that week mostly match those of the first movie.

I think, upon returning to 1985, TP George would physically transform to LP George - but, momentarily, have strictly TP George's memories and personality. After some time, though, I think George would not only gain his LP memories - but he would also be a lot more like LP George in personality, while never really losing his memories of being TP George.

[Marty Mcfly III]

I think that at first the old memories would be dominant but after a while the memories of the revised timeline would become dominant, although the old memories would never disappear.
Also I don't think he could ever consider himself the 'new version' whether the new memories are most dominant or not because he would have grown up with different experiences in his life meaning he could never be the same person as the other person.

[bttf4444]

Originally Posted by Marty Mcfly III

Also I don't think he could ever consider himself the 'new version' whether the new memories are most dominant or not because he would have grown up with different experiences in his life meaning he could never be the same person as the other person.

I don't really see it that way. You're looking at him as TP Marty with dominant LP Marty memories, but I see him as a complete fusion of the two (with LP Marty's physical appearances and dominant LP Marty's memories). In other words, neither past is "less real" to him.

I maintain that if TP George went back to 1955 with Marty, the events of the first film remain mostly the same (albeit with TP George in 1955), then he returns to 1985 with Marty - he would eventually become more like LP George (confident and a successful author), but never losing his TP memories.

I actually did a similar fanfic, where Marty Jr from the 2015 that we see in Part II goes back to 1985. He warns his father about the race with Needles, and convinces his father to overcome his "chicken" problem. After returning to 2015, where Marty's future is brighter, Marty Jr becomes his more confident self (and gains a girlfriend, who he was dating for two years).

[sn939]

Originally Posted by Marty Mcfly III

I think that at first the old memories would be dominant but after a while the memories of the revised timeline would become dominant, although the old memories would never disappear.
Also I don't think he could ever consider himself the 'new version' whether the new memories are most dominant or not because he would have grown up with different experiences in his life meaning he could never be the same person as the other person.

To an extent, I kinda agree with that.

One can possibly argue that the 'newer' version of the time traveller's who travel back to the same point in space-time as a previous version of them is erased...and that the ripple effect, rather than making the original version the new version, merely gives the original version the memories of the new version.

Then again, bttf4's point about it being a 'complete fusion' also kinda makes sense...since it would be logical for the memories of the 'current' timeline to supercede the old one.

Here is to my mind a list of observations about Marty and his memories and personality, based on the films and the game-

1. The day after Marty returns from 1955 (morning of October 26th), he appears to clearly be the TP version exclusively and is shocked by the LP timeline. Although, bear in mind that he is dazed and disoriented and even at first considers the whole 1955 adventure to be a nightmare...so he may well have two sets of memories already without knowing it. He does refer to his truck as the 'new truck'-and yet seems very accepting of the LP version of his parents. His look at them before Doc's return does seem to indicate recognition at least on some sub-concious level.

2. After Marty has arrived in 2015, he seems to be a subtly different individual from what we saw in BTTF1. No longer is he worried about facing rejection and the fact that he's not cut out for music-he is instead brimming with confidence and is sure he'll be a rich rock star in the future. He has also developed a new aspect to his personality (the 'chicken problem'), which we don't exactly see in BTTF1 (although, the two Bobs have stated that had they planned a trilogy, they would have given him the chicken problem right from the beginning, and he was a wee bit headstrong in the first film as well)-but the 'chicken problem' being due to his new upbringing is too potent a theory to disregard. So I'd say by this point, his personality, is not his memory, is affected by the LP version.

3. Marty tells Old Biff "George McFly is NO LONGER a loser"-now that statement can be interpreted as meaning he CLEARLY remembers the TP timeline, which is fair enough. A lot of people have erroneously taken it to believe he DOES NOT remember the LP timeline. One thing is clear-Marty, from his POV, believes that George WAS a loser who has now become 'cool'-even though he may technically 'remember' him being cool all along, because he still has his original memories and may even consider them 'more real' than the new ones at this point.

4. In 1985-A, Marty seems shocked when it appears to him that Lorraine and George have split up...if he remembered only the TP versions, this shouldn't have been TOO surprising for him (that was a really unhappy marriage), which means he very clearly remembers a time when they were happily married (though granted, this is a stretch, but still...)

5. Upon returning from 1885 in the end, Marty reacts to his LP family as saying "Thank God you're all back to normal" and doesn't in the least seem perturbed or surprised by the LP versions. So clearly, on some subconcious level, he now unquestioningly accepts the LP versions as his 'true family', indicating perhaps that the LP memories are gaining some dominance. He also drives the truck quiet confidantly, as though he knows how to do it and has done it before, so another point in favour of his being LP Marty now.

6. In Episode 3, Marty clearly refers to the TP versions of George and Lorraine, while explaining the events of the first film to Citizen Brown (indeed the FCB versions do resemble the TP versions, owing to Marty's 1955 trip being erased)...so he definetly remembers them; however he also refers to a photo of LP George as his 'real Dad' or something like that. In Episode 5, Marty seems to lament growing up with a 'milksop' of a father...indicating that on some level, he still considers his TP upbringing to be his 'real' upbringing.

So based on these points, it seems the argument can go either way

[bttf4444]

You make some very good points, sn939.

Just one thing I want to mention, though. Marty in Episode Five didn't seem too distraught about growing up with a wimpy George. He just pointed out that that also isn't so great, when young Emmett mentions wishing that he had that kind of father. I think Marty will always remember both timelines clearly, but that the new timeline takes dominance. He probably remembers more fondly his childhood in the LP Timeline.

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

Well what do you think edna remembers in the timeline she destroys hill valley?

She clearly does remember the previous timeline where she was with emmett but is that the only timeline she'd remember? Let's assume she is still born in the destroyed hill valley timeline; do you think she'd remember the timeline concurrently going on where she's growing up in a different town? Keep in mind for her, that would essentially be remembering the future.

Consider these 2 timelines (I am somewhat filling in the blanks) let's assume edna is born in 1911 making her 20 in 1931 and 75 in 1986
in the previous timeline she'd be born in 1911, go back in time from 1931 to 1876 and remain in that timeline and thus be 75 in 1931
let's assume in the hill valley destroyed timeline edna is still born in 1911 but in a different city (let's say hollywood and we'll call her hollywood edna)
in 1931 would hill valley Edna have all of hollywood ednas memories all the way up to 1986 (the year hollywood edna is 75)?

I dont think the memories do merge or overlap; in 1885 doc clearly has NO recollection of his second encounter with marty in 1955 (doesnt remember his silly clothes, sending him back, finding his own tombstomb

[bttf4444]

I think Edna would not remember the No Hill Valley Timeline until the moment that her younger self went back in time. Perhaps, suddenly gaining a new set of memories added to her insanity.

Also, apparently, the novelization of the third film does have Doc remembering dressing Marty in the "ridiculous outfit" shortly after Marty shows up in 1885 - and even his rationale for it. So that also helps support my theory. Although, whether or not you accept it as canon is up for grabs.

[sn939]

Originally Posted by Michael J Fox is Canadian

Well what do you think edna remembers in the timeline she destroys hill valley?

She clearly does remember the previous timeline where she was with emmett but is that the only timeline she'd remember? Let's assume she is still born in the destroyed hill valley timeline; do you think she'd remember the timeline concurrently going on where she's growing up in a different town? Keep in mind for her, that would essentially be remembering the future.

Consider these 2 timelines (I am somewhat filling in the blanks) let's assume edna is born in 1911 making her 20 in 1931 and 75 in 1986
in the previous timeline she'd be born in 1911, go back in time from 1931 to 1876 and remain in that timeline and thus be 75 in 1931
let's assume in the hill valley destroyed timeline edna is still born in 1911 but in a different city (let's say hollywood and we'll call her hollywood edna)
in 1931 would hill valley Edna have all of hollywood ednas memories all the way up to 1986 (the year hollywood edna is 75)?

I dont think the memories do merge or overlap; in 1885 doc clearly has NO recollection of his second encounter with marty in 1955 (doesnt remember his silly clothes, sending him back, finding his own tombstomb

No, Edna wouldn't remember the 'destroyed Hill Valley' timeline for two reasons-firstly, the ripple effect would only give time traveller's memories of the new timeline once they return to what is supposed to be their present (or at any rate, some point AFTER their present)...Edna never really returned to her present; while she has made it back to 1931, it is through the natural course of time; she is still a temporally displaced person.

More importantly of course, is that 'destroyed Hill Valley' Edna, if she even existed, would never have travelled back in time and could thus NEVER become 'our' Edna who's trapped in the past...much like how 'our' Marty and Doc in BTTF2 would never really remember the 1985-A timeline, because their 1985-A counterparts never travelled back in time, and thus couldn't logically be their past selves (but would instead be ALTERNATE selves).

Likewise, I don't think there is any point in BTTF3, in 1885, where Doc remembers Marty's second visit to him in 1955 (the novelisation has got that dead wrong). AFTER he returns to 1985 (or beyond) when he builds the time train, he would gain his new memories (though whether or not he would remember the tombstone, which doesn't exist anymore, is another question entirely).

[bttf4444]

My theory is that Doc wouldn't remember the gravestone. Here is what I think happened in the final timeline (of the movies).

I think Marty, curious to find out what Doc's life in the past is like (because, remember, he was told to go straight back to 1985), would spend some time at the library. At some point, he would stumble across the picture of "Clint Eastwood" and Doc. He would deduce from that that, somehow, he needs to go back to 1885. I'm not sure if he would show Doc '55 the photo, but he would tell Doc '55 what he found - and that he needs to go to the past.

So, instead of the gravestone, Marty has that photo with "Clint Eastwood" in it.

[sn939]

Originally Posted by bttf4444

My theory is that Doc wouldn't remember the gravestone. Here is what I think happened in the final timeline (of the movies).

I think Marty, curious to find out what Doc's life in the past is like (because, remember, he was told to go straight back to 1985), would spend some time at the library. At some point, he would stumble across the picture of "Clint Eastwood" and Doc. He would deduce from that that, somehow, he needs to go back to 1885. I'm not sure if he would show Doc '55 the photo, but he would tell Doc '55 what he found - and that he needs to go to the past.

So, instead of the gravestone, Marty has that photo with "Clint Eastwood" in it.

Yeah, that's pretty much the same theory I recently came up with. Though of course, the 'echo theory' might also apply here, with the tombstone temporarily appearing to ensure its own non-existence.

I don't know how you arrived at this theory-but I came up with it by reading the commentary for BTTF3 online...Bob Gale mentions how the partially destroyed picture of Doc by the Clock Tower, which Marty had brought with him from 1955, would likely have had Marty in it as well had it been completed. This meant that in the Eastwood timeline, Marty should logically have come across the photograph with him in it.

[JonathanDeLorean]

I don't think that the timetraveler gets any new memories from the new timeline except when he experience them him self, like TP -Marty is still TP-Marty even though he lives in LP-Martys timeline.

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

Originally Posted by bttf4444

My theory is that Doc wouldn't remember the gravestone. Here is what I think happened in the final timeline (of the movies).

I think Marty, curious to find out what Doc's life in the past is like (because, remember, he was told to go straight back to 1985), would spend some time at the library. At some point, he would stumble across the picture of "Clint Eastwood" and Doc. He would deduce from that that, somehow, he needs to go back to 1885. I'm not sure if he would show Doc '55 the photo, but he would tell Doc '55 what he found - and that he needs to go to the past.

So, instead of the gravestone, Marty has that photo with "Clint Eastwood" in it.

No he wouldnt because thats not the way bttf time travel works. The future of time travel is not written so while marty is in 1955, there would be no evidence of clint eastwood in 1885 because it hasn't happened yet. Doc gets the picture by himself with the clock when he's in 1885 by himself, he and marty get it together when they are there. Although it's never shown, marty should appear next to doc in the pic marty brings back to 1885. This is why the only time that pic is shown after the party (right after the delorean gets detroyed in 1885), half of it is torn off, which is the spot marty was standing. If that side wasnt torn off, it would likley have marty in that pic.

[sn939]

Originally Posted by Michael J Fox is Canadian

No he wouldnt because thats not the way bttf time travel works. The future of time travel is not written so while marty is in 1955, there would be no evidence of clint eastwood in 1885 because it hasn't happened yet. Doc gets the picture by himself with the clock when he's in 1885 by himself, he and marty get it together when they are there. Although it's never shown, marty should appear next to doc in the pic marty brings back to 1885. This is why the only time that pic is shown after the party (right after the delorean gets detroyed in 1885), half of it is torn off, which is the spot marty was standing. If that side wasnt torn off, it would likley have marty in that pic.

Yeah, that's pretty much what bttf4444 and I and saying.

We are dealing with 2 timelines here-the Shonash timeline and the Eastwood timeline. The Shonash timeline is the one we see early in BTTF3 after Doc is sent back to 1885. In this timeline, in 1955, Marty sees the tombstone and decides to go back and save Doc, creating the Eastwood timeline. The rest of the movie is set in Eastwood 1885...however, whatever changes Marty made in 1885 (including preventing Doc's death and destroying the tombstone) would 'ripple forward' into 1955...so in Eastwood 1955, there would be no tombstone for Marty to find, and the picture in the library would logically have both Marty and Doc in it. We never see the events in 1955 play out in this final timeline, but we can assume something happened to cause Marty to go back to 1885, otherwise we either have a paradox on our hands, or a situation of two Marty's.

[Phineas10]

Accidentaly I vote for Memories of the revised timeline

[bttf4444]

Originally Posted by sn939

I don't know how you arrived at this theory-but I came up with it by reading the commentary for BTTF3 online...Bob Gale mentions how the partially destroyed picture of Doc by the Clock Tower, which Marty had brought with him from 1955, would likely have had Marty in it as well had it been completed. This meant that in the Eastwood timeline, Marty should logically have come across the photograph with him in it.

While I agree with Mike Mahoney's theory of your future selves (and any children that your future self has) disappearing, if you stay in the future for over 24 hours - I never cared for his theory of Doc creating a fake tombstone for Marty to find in 1955 of the final timeline. It just seemed too contrived, for me.

So I kind of had to figure out my own solution on the events of what would lead to Marty's decision in 1955 of the Eastwood timeline to go back to 1885. The other possibility would've been for him to just disregard Doc's wishes to go back to 1985, because he would miss his friend too much.

However, I then thought of how Marty brought back two photos to 1885 - the one of Doc's gravestone and the one of Doc standing in front of the clock tower. I always knew that the clock tower photo that Marty took with Doc in 1885 was the equivalent of the one where Doc was originally the only one who stood in front of the clock tower.

Even though there would be no gravestone for Marty to find, the picture of him and Doc standing in front of the clock tower would still be there. Since Marty assumed that he would never see his friend, again - I figured that it would only be natural for him to want to find out how his friend spent the rest of his life. It's at that point that he would find the clock tower photo, and be shocked to see himself in it. He might, at first, assume that it was an ancestor of his - until he sees the name "Clint Eastwood". He would then draw the conclusion that "Clint Eastwood" was, in actuality, himself.

So that's that.

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

Originally Posted by bttf4444

However, I then thought of how Marty brought back two photos to 1885 - the one of Doc's gravestone and the one of Doc standing in front of the clock tower. I always knew that the clock tower photo that Marty took with Doc in 1885 was the equivalent of the one where Doc was originally the only one who stood in front of the clock tower.

Even though there would be no gravestone for Marty to find, the picture of him and Doc standing in front of the clock tower would still be there. Since Marty assumed that he would never see his friend, again - I figured that it would only be natural for him to want to find out how his friend spent the rest of his life. It's at that point that he would find the clock tower photo, and be shocked to see himself in it. He might, at first, assume that it was an ancestor of his - until he sees the name "Clint Eastwood". He would then draw the conclusion that "Clint Eastwood" was, in actuality, himself.

So that's that.

By this logic then, how does Marty know he broke his parents up in 1955? By this rationale the picture of his parents wouldn't fade out and he'd have no clue anythings wrong and hide in docs place for the week.

[bttf4444]

It's not the same thing. Even though my theory is that the memories do update, I believe that Marty is always TP Marty during his initial week in 1955. Because 1955 comes before 1985, the photo will still fade out.

However, in the Eastwood timeline, 1955 comes after 1885 - so it only make sense that the photo of Doc and Marty in front of the clock tower would remain intact.