Was anyone else disappointed with Season 3's ending? (SPOILERS)

[Superninfreak]

Let me just start by saying that while I haven't posted much, I love Sam and Max. Some episodes (S1E4, S1E5, and S2E4 especially) were just brilliant. I also loved Season 3.

Until I got to the ending that is.

I had two major problems with it.

1. Max went completely out of character. After Max has been built up as evil for the entire series, it's not believable that he would die just so Sybil wouldn't have to give birth outside of a hospital. I don't think Max would even care if Sybil died, honestly.

2. Girl Stinky died despite the fact that she's alive in the future. This was a pretty glaring plot hole.


The worst part about it though is that I can SEE a brilliant ending in Season 3. Had they not made those mistakes, I would want that to be the finale of everything Sam and Max, just because of how beautiful an ending it would have been.

#1 could have easily been fixed if it were Sam who Max died for instead of Sybil. Sam is the only person I think Max would die for, and it would still get across the point that Max isn't completely irredeemable.

So yeah, thoughts?

[Shyguy]

It was a shocker, certainly, but I don't know whether it was really a good or bad ending for me.

[Ribs]

Originally Posted by Superninfreak

Let me just start by saying that I haven't posted much, I love Sam and Max. Some episodes (S1E4, S1E5, and S2E4 especially) were just brilliant. I also loved Season 3.

Until I got to the ending that is.

I had two major problems with it.

1. Max went completely out of character. After Max has been built up as evil for the entire series, it's not believable that he would die just so Sybil wouldn't have to give birth outside of a hospital. I don't think Max would even care if Sybil died, honestly.

2. Girl Stinky died despite the fact that she's alive in the future. This was a pretty glaring plot hole.


The worst part about it though is that I can SEE a brilliant ending in Season 3. Had they not made those mistakes, I would want that to be the finale of everything Sam and Max, just because of how beautiful an ending it would have been.

#1 could have easily been fixed if it were Sam who Max died for instead of Sybil. Sam is the only person I think Max would die for, and it would still get across the point that Max isn't completely irredeemable.

So yeah, thoughts?

We never see Stinky alive in the future. All we know is it's a girl stinky, not THE Girl Stinky.

Also, you clearly do not understand the concept of character development.

[crfh]

To my understanding, it was not quite Max just dying to save Sybil. From what I could gather, Max ID understood that he was going to die soon anyway. It wasn't the nuke to the chest that did him in, it was actually that his head was going to catch on fire and explode. When Sam and the others get out, Max's head immediately goes out in flames, then he gets the nuke to the chest, and then he teleports himself out to space. So what he does is not sacrifice himself, but actually STOP trying to destroy the west coast of the USA when he goes out (which was Ego's original plan).

[strongtyler]

Originally Posted by Superninfreak

Let me just start by saying that I haven't posted much, I love Sam and Max. Some episodes (S1E4, S1E5, and S2E4 especially) were just brilliant. I also loved Season 3.

Until I got to the ending that is.

I had two major problems with it.

1. Max went completely out of character. After Max has been built up as evil for the entire series, it's not believable that he would die just so Sybil wouldn't have to give birth outside of a hospital. I don't think Max would even care if Sybil died, honestly.

2. Girl Stinky died despite the fact that she's alive in the future. This was a pretty glaring plot hole.


The worst part about it though is that I can SEE a brilliant ending in Season 3. Had they not made those mistakes, I would want that to be the finale of everything Sam and Max, just because of how beautiful an ending it would have been.

#1 could have easily been fixed if it were Sam who Max died for instead of Sybil. Sam is the only person I think Max would die for, and it would still get across the point that Max isn't completely irredeemable.

So yeah, thoughts?

No, Max isn't evil his alter ego is

[DAISHI]

The ID isn't 'evil' per say just an expression of a person's most base desires. Max had been developing a little bit over the entire season (or so I felt).

[Sausy Gibbon]

The first episode already dealed with predefined future. I assume the future in 204 was like the future visions what could happen not what will happen in the future.

[skullbank]

I wasn't disappointed, because the ending broke my tiny little heart. If a game can do that, it's noteworthy.

Originally Posted by Superninfreak

1. Max went completely out of character. After Max has been built up as evil for the entire series, it's not believable that he would die just so Sybil wouldn't have to give birth outside of a hospital. I don't think Max would even care if Sybil died, honestly.

BUT, Max isn't evil. Not strictly evil, atleast. He acts like he doesn't care, but he does save the world an awful lot for not caring. Season 3 even has him actively saving the world on his own at times. He may use the Toys of Power for... stupid purposes, but he doesn't use them for evil. (Hey, if it was up to me, I'd be using those Powers for Stupid more than for Good, lol.)

And, as crfh explained, he doesn't die just to save Sybil, he dies to save everybody (including Sam). Saving Sybil wasn't his only goal, although it was probably emphasized to make it seem that way, because Max dying to save someone other than Sam is more unexpected.

[tabstis]

This whole Stinky alive in the future could prompt an idea for Season 4 - Sam and Max could end up in the future once more and have to figure out whether it is the real girl Stinky or some imposter...

[Superninfreak]

Originally Posted by Ribs

Also, you clearly do not understand the concept of character development.

There's a difference between character development and someone going out of character.

Development has to be believable, and I didn't believe Max would do what he did.

Originally Posted by crfh

To my understanding, it was not quite Max just dying to save Sybil. From what I could gather, Max ID understood that he was going to die soon anyway. It wasn't the nuke to the chest that did him in, it was actually that his head was going to catch on fire and explode. When Sam and the others get out, Max's head immediately goes out in flames, then he gets the nuke to the chest, and then he teleports himself out to space. So what he does is not sacrifice himself, but actually STOP trying to destroy the west coast of the USA when he goes out (which was Ego's original plan).

IIRC, they were trying to save Max by getting rid of the tumor when he told them to help Sybil instead. His death wasn't inevitable, and if he had been saved he wouldn't have continued to attack the town anyway.

The fact is that Max being selfish was emphasized again and again throughout the series. I didn't get the impression that Sybil was someone Max particularly cared about, so it seemed strange that he would die for her. There was only one character who Max actually seemed to care about at all - Sam.

Originally Posted by skullbank

BUT, Max isn't evil. Not strictly evil, atleast. He acts like he doesn't care, but he does save the world an awful lot for not caring. Season 3 even has him actively saving the world on his own at times. He may use the Toys of Power for... stupid purposes, but he doesn't use them for evil. (Hey, if it was up to me, I'd be using those Powers for Stupid more than for Good, lol.)

I was under the impression that Sam and Max only save the world because they have fun doing so.

[skullbank]

Originally Posted by Superninfreak

I was under the impression that Sam and Max only save the world because they have fun doing so.

True, but they could have just as much fun aiding villains, or being villains. And they choose not to. The choices characters make (especially under pressure) are what define their characterization.

[Sausy Gibbon]

There is a line from Surfin' the Highway that I believe covers Sam and Max' motivations perfectly.
Sam: Crime is a disease and we're a pink chalky-tasting medicine!

[RAnthonyMahan]

Originally Posted by Superninfreak

1. Max went completely out of character. After Max has been built up as evil for the entire series, it's not believable that he would die just so Sybil wouldn't have to give birth outside of a hospital. I don't think Max would even care if Sybil died, honestly.

Max isn't evil, just...chaotic. Steve Purcell's always insisted that despite their sociopathic tendencies, the Freelance Police are good at heart. They're not the type to, say, assault innocents for no reason.

And it's not that he was dying for Sybil. He was going to die no matter what, and he didn't want the people inside of him (Sam is there too, remember) to get killed as well.

Originally Posted by Superninfreak

2. Girl Stinky died despite the fact that she's alive in the future. This was a pretty glaring plot hole.

Sam and Max has always been firmly anti-continuity. While the Telltale episodes have reversed the trend, continuity can still be sacrificed for the sake of a joke.

If you want an in-universe explanation, Sam and Max constantly messing with the timeline has caused the future seen in Chariots of the Dogs to never happen. On the bright side, though, this means Sam won't be a delirious old man in Davros' wheelchair.

[ezzetabi]

I personally loved the ending. It is almost poetry, and it is difficult obtain such effect with the death of one character.

Beside I loved the idea of the alternative universe where is Sam that gains the powers and Max is forced to blow him up.

- Let's fight crime? (draws Lugan)
- Let's.

[Superninfreak]

Originally Posted by RAnthonyMahan

Max isn't evil, just...chaotic. Steve Purcell's always insisted that despite their sociopathic tendencies, the Freelance Police are good at heart. They're not the type to, say, assault innocents for no reason.

And it's not that he was dying for Sybil. He was going to die no matter what, and he didn't want the people inside of him (Sam is there too, remember) to get killed as well.

I thought that they were about to change him back to normal and stop him from dying?

Originally Posted by RAnthonyMahan

Sam and Max has always been firmly anti-continuity. While the Telltale episodes have reversed the trend, continuity can still be sacrificed for the sake of a joke.

If you want an in-universe explanation, Sam and Max constantly messing with the timeline has caused the future seen in Chariots of the Dogs to never happen. On the bright side, though, this means Sam won't be a delirious old man in Davros' wheelchair.

One thing I liked about Telltale's Sam and Max stuff was that the continuity was surprisingly good. At the very least when they wanted to retcon something they would give a half assed explanation for it (like when the internet died but then came back).

[crfh]

I think that there was simply no time for that. Ego says he was going to perform the surgery, but before it can be complete, Big Max's head caught on fire. The nukes were due in 3 minutes. A nuke hits Max in the chest. He waves goodbye and leaves.

If Max's friends weren't out by that moment, they would have been teleported into Skunkape's ship and killed. That means Sybil, Paperwaite, Norrington... and Sam.

[Superninfreak]

Even so, I'm not sure Max knew he'd explode so soon, and he did say "Save Sybil" instead of something like "Get out and save yourselves".

[Fly]

I saw the point of the scene as showing that Max is just as capable of acts of random goodness and kindness as he is of random evil and mayhem. He's all id - I don't buy that he rationalised the act at all. He just arbitrarily decided to Save Sybil, and so for that moment all he could think about was saving Sybil, and it came from the same thought processes that lead to him arbitrarily deciding to torture someone. Max isn't good or bad, or even selfish or unselfish. He's just impulse.

There's a little bit of this characterisation in the comics, in Beast from the Cereal Isle (which I'd guess is the main influence on Devil's Playhouse). Right at the end of the story, a kid falls off the Beast, and Max, without breaking conversation, catches him and sets him back on the ride. He's not really paying attention to what he's doing - he just instinctively decided to help the kid, and so he did.

[crfh]

I don't agree with the people that says he doesn't care about Sybil. When the Toy Mafia puts a hit on her, Max no only worries about not killing her. He even goes as far as to object when Sam says they gotta convince her to stop being a "professional witness". Max says then she'd lose her job.

Max is a freelance police because he likes mayhem, but he likes a free card to do it. It's not just randomly hurting people, or at least not always. Somewhere under those fuzzy ears lie some scruples, and so he justifies his admittedly over-the-top violence because he's inflicting in what he perceives to be bad people, or with a "end justifies the means" policy.

[1nky]

Originally Posted by Fly

I saw the point of the scene as showing that Max is just as capable of acts of random goodness and kindness as he is of random evil and mayhem. He's all id - I don't buy that he rationalised the act at all. He just arbitrarily decided to Save Sybil, and so for that moment all he could think about was saving Sybil, and it came from the same thought processes that lead to him arbitrarily deciding to torture someone. Max isn't good or bad, or even selfish or unselfish. He's just impulse.

There's a little bit of this characterisation in the comics, in Beast from the Cereal Isle (which I'd guess is the main influence on Devil's Playhouse). Right at the end of the story, a kid falls off the Beast, and Max, without breaking conversation, catches him and sets him back on the ride. He's not really paying attention to what he's doing - he just instinctively decided to help the kid, and so he did.

Originally Posted by crfh

I don't agree with the people that says he doesn't care about Sybil. When the Toy Mafia puts a hit on her, Max no only worries about not killing her. He even goes as far as to object when Sam says they gotta convince her to stop being a "professional witness". Max says then she'd lose her job.

Max is a freelance police because he likes mayhem, but he likes a free card to do it. It's not just randomly hurting people, or at least not always. Somewhere under those fuzzy ears lie some scruples, and so he justifies his admittedly over-the-top violence because he's inflicting in what he perceives to be bad people, or with a "end justifies the means" policy.

It's weird seeing two slightly differentiating viewpoints of a character side-by-side that I both wholeheartedly agree with.

On topic, though, I wasn't really disappointed at all, the reasons having pretty much already been discussed in this topic. With Stinky's death, much like the use of Future Vision, her future success is pretty much a possible timeline. Plus, didn't Sam and Max screw that future over with their tar cake patent shenanigans, or was that just the adhesive? Eh.

Whilst Max's character is difficult to pin down at times, I can't classify him as evil. He will act on id most of the time, and mainly seems to act in his own best interests, but in the grand scheme of things, he's not out to destroy the world - otherwise he'd have done so already. :/ But yeah, while the "Save Sybil" was out of character for him, I thought it was plausible enough, considering the severity of that situation.