Limited Choices discussion (merged threads)

[malcom155]

Originally Posted by YamiRaziel

You don't want choices, you want to be Gods. Well, you are weak whining humans both in the game and RL apparently. Get over it.

Do you know what choice is? Choice is whether to be good or bad to a little girl who's parents are probably dead.
Saving everybody from certain death is your latent dream of being more than you are. You want to be heroes you're not in RL and because you can't be, you start crying that the game doesn't allow you to make choices.
This is pathetic, honestly!

No it's not that and you already know it. We have already discuss this subject numerous time, i don't want to be a god, i just want to see one of my decisions lasting. I've yet to see one... Doug/Carley are dead...
And how can we be bad with clem ??? Don't give her hat ? (woooo i'm evil !!!) not checked her finger (aaah i'm a hangman !!!). You know what the majority mean by impact.

Originally Posted by YamiRaziel View Post
Maugly, choice and result are two different things. You can try to save her or not. That's choice.
Her death is the RESULT of somebody else's choice.

Yes but it's not this person who buy the game, it's me and this person say: your choices will lasting... I just want to have an impact, it's not the same to be a god right ?( and what is this argument ??? We are speaking about the players choice, not "choices" made by a bunch of pixel, this is not choices, this is programmation, Lilly can't make choice)

Again, i don't thinks a simple change of dialogue can improves an important thing in any game: replayability. By now, all i see is the same story, no matter the side, no matter the dialogue, it's always the same outcome. So TWD is a good interactive comic sold 25 dollars, it's not cheap for a comic...

@viser yes it's only the third, but what is the point to play the first three if the outcome are always the same ? Do you really thing you will see lee dying in 4 or 5 episode because off a choice made in the second ? i don't think so... It 'll be a little change, like the hoodie, an equipment at best, a living or dead sub character (like ben, who have nothing to say, to do... and he will die seconds after). Nothing important. I may be wrong, i wish i'm wrong... Again, replayability is smashed...

now a question :
Do you really thing the second season will have success the same success as the first ?
My answers is no. Look at the steam succes page of the game, Tellatale lost a lot of players (really... last time i cheked more than 80%, it's really a lot for a middle chapter !!!) So, do you think the base of players is satisfied ? I don't speak about fan (after all this word came from fanatics) but of the lambda player, mister and miss everybody.
Look at the steam forum and you will have your answers... and the number of player everyday, the max i see was 1.250 worldwide (on pc), obscures games that we never heard of are doing better. It's few, really few. Look at others forums, it's always the same thing: choices don't matters. And don't forget bad mouth to ear is bad for a game, worse than a good review of IGN (lol).

But i think tellatale already know that fact.
I'll just wait for chapter 4, after all i've a season pass, but don't count on me for the second, i've already said to my friends to wait before buying the game, just to see lasting choices... At last, on this, my choice matter no ?
If they want to play they can on my steam account, so they don't have to buy it.

edit: @Aldaron, you'd made a great post !

[_Grey_]

Someone on IGN said this and I agree completely:

Here's my problem with the way the game is now going (SPOILERS)... I also replayed it several times to try to save Carly, and there was no way. And I left Lilly behind. I have 2 games going-- one where I'm heroic and trying to make the right choices, hard as they may be. Then I have a second playthrough where I make all of the completely opposite choices, because I wanted to see the other side of the game. They're both turning out to be exactly the same. It doesn't matter which character you chose to save in Episode 1, Carly or Doug. Whichever one was left gets killed this episode, and there's no way to save them. Then, even if you choose to bring Lilly with you, she steals the RV immediately upon finding the train, and she's gone. All of the seeming choices the game is offering are purely cosmetic in the most superficial sense. None of the choices we're making really change the outcome of the game in any way. Now, Walking Dead is still a fun game to play, and it's still pretty to look at. But as I was playing Episodes 1-2, I was ready to give the game a 9-10. Now playing Episode 3, and having it revealed how superficial all of the choices we can make are, and what little effect they actually have on the predetermined narrative, I'm rating the game probably about a 7.0. I understand that it might have been difficult to truly incorporate the different choices. It would have meant making a bigger game, where you don't see everything on one playthough. It would have been like one of those old Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books where you have to keep going back to reread it to see how the other choices play out and to be able to see all of the story. But that was also the main selling point of the game, the gimmick that we were playing it for. That we could make tough choices that would have a real effect on the narrative. This is why people are excited to play it, and where the replay value would be. But as the episodes go on, to see that this selling hook is really all lip service and that it doesn't have much tangible effect on the outcome of the game... well then the game is nothing other than a narrative story. The choices dress it up to make it look like we play some part, and to emotionally involve us in the narrative, but as this streamlining continues, and as more and more players realize that our choices do not really effect the narrative of the game, everyone is going to be much less enamored of a game that actually does not involve them in any way, and they will probably feel much less connected to it than they currently are. Let's just say I've become incredibly disappointed in a game that I was initially extremely excited about.

[Xarne]

*Wall of Text crits you for 1,000,000 points. You die.*
Restart <Y/N>?

tldr;

[malcom155]

@Grey: Your post summarize the vast majority off critics on the web...

I'm at the same state...
All the results are always the same, what you do, wht you say, what you choose don't matter.

@Ramiraziel (and others): what would be your answer to the post of Grey ?
(if i would be ironic, i would say: Lilly, a NPC, CHOOSE to kill another NPC, at last her choice tailor the story unlike mine...)

@Xarn : my commentary will be really constructive :LOL ^^

[bubbledncr]

Originally Posted by joorgen

more accurate to what I wanted to say =P I choose to take the food in the car, I get food. I choose to not take the food in the car I still get food.

Also I am happy that you didn't go the troll method there telltale man, I was half expecting a sarcastic remark at how I am a gamer so I would be dead no matter what XD

I do agree that it is good that there is no rights or wrongs, but I wanted to feel the consequences more heavily than I felt I did.
The time I chose not to take the food I wanted to see a real heavy impact sorta like the others chose to take alot less food and only bare necesities instead at that time. Then maybe seeing the desperation you'd end up with.

I dunno. I am not saying your jobs are easy because it sure as hell isn't, but I
just know that it feels like less than what I was promised. Good story though but yeah =P

I understand where you come from - I myself am a gamer whose favorite games are RPG's where my choices affect the story.

Without wanting to spoil the Mass Effect series, I spent years looking forward to and theorizing what all the outcomes of my decisions in ME1 and ME2 would have - only to find out that the things I thought were big choices and thought would help me out/screw me over, actually had no effect at all.

And while I understand as a gamer how disappointing that is, I also understand as a developer how hard it is to make a game that rewards you for certain choices. Not only how much more expensive it is from a production standpoint, but also because rewarding people for certain choices implies that those are the correct choices, which isn't something you want to do in a game about making tough choices. But we do keep track of every choice you make, and it does affect what the other characters think of you.

I would say, as someone who knows what's coming, to wait until the end of the series to complain about whether or not your choices had any meaning. If you still don't think they did, we'd love to hear why, and suggestions for improvement. But just like the zombie apocalypse, bad things will always happen, despite your best efforts.

[Marleysativa]

Originally Posted by bubbledncr

I would say, as someone who knows what's coming, to wait until the end of the series to complain about whether or not your choices had any meaning. If you still don't think they did, we'd love to hear why, and suggestions for improvement. But just like the zombie apocalypse, bad things will always happen, despite your best efforts.

Now I'm extremely excited. Thanks for staying true to the tone of the comics!

[Sentient Orange]

Originally Posted by Sonic Boyster

One lasting consequence? So you're suggesting that Lee, Kenny, and the player all have Alzheimer.

Yup, they might as well have alzheimer's. None of the decisions so far have done anything other than very slightly changed a scene or altered a little bit of dialogue, mostly with kenny.

Saved duck or shaun? Doesn't change anything, kenny forgets it immediately afterwards and only brings this back up again near the end of episode 3, by which time you'll have probably have forgotten who he's even talking about.

Saved carley or doug? doesn't change anything much, they both die in almost exactly the same way at the same location in the same time basically.

Gave the gun to the girl in the motor inn? doesn't matter because there's nobody left apart from lee who even remembers that, and he won't even tell anybody about it now most likely.

Shot the girl at the start of episode 3? SPOILER WARNIoh wait it doesn't matter because the amount of supplies you collect doesn't matter and you have infinite ammo anyway.

A LOT of the dialogue in this game stays the same unless you specifically decide to be as friendly or as mean as possible, there's not really any middle ground.

Originally Posted by Master of Aeons

Everything in Heavy Rain happens in a linear fashion too. The only stuff that changes is whether your characters are alive or not at the end. That's probably going to be the same in this game, too. Only the last handful of survivors can survive or die based on your actions.

How are the billion pointless decisions in Heavy Rain are different from the hundreds in Walking Dead? Fail the driving portion, you still get the next clue. Don't gather clues? You still can find the solution. Someone dies? The story still continues through the same mystery.

The choices in heavy rain at least affect how the endings are (and i think that if a character dies halfway through, then the other characters might act differently or talk differently, i don't remember now).
The way it's looking in TWD, your choices probably won't even affect the ending.


There's choices in every game. You can choose whether you'll shoot an enemy or not, you choose if you pick something up or go in a secret area. You choose where you walk, or if you play the game at all.

The difference is that this game specifically advertised CHOICES, which to most people would mean that the choices you pick in the game actually hold some more significance than usual games..

Also, i didn't really care about carely, so the reason that a lot of people are complaining about this isn't because they wanted a virtual girlfriend (there's dating sims for that), i didn't care about "having sex" with her or whatever, i just didn't like the way she died.

She just fell to the ground, people cared more that lilly shot her rather than carley actually being dead. A better way to dispose of her character would have been something more emotional, such as her having her guts ripped out by a zombie but still being alive for a few seconds, and you have the option of killing her or leaving her to bleed out. That's an emotional scene.

[malcom155]

@bubbledncr: can you just explain a little please, you said:

"Not only how much more expensive it is from a production standpoint, but also because rewarding people for certain choices implies that those are the correct choices, which isn't something you want to do in a game about making tough choices."

How can't be wrong choices if their are tough ? How can the choices can meaning (and if i use the advertissment : lasting) if their can't be wrong ? At best, they'll "change" dialogue, custscene but not tailor the story herself, it will always you're in A, go in B ('like ep3) without any chance to change anything and the final state will always be the same ('same survivor, same state, same equipment etc...)
Thanks for your attention.

[Marleysativa]

Originally Posted by malcom155

@bubbledncr: can you just explain a little please, you said:

"Not only how much more expensive it is from a production standpoint, but also because rewarding people for certain choices implies that those are the correct choices, which isn't something you want to do in a game about making tough choices."

How can't be wrong choices if their are tough ? How can the choices can meaning (and if i use the advertissment : lasting) if their can't be wrong ? At best, they'll "change" dialogue, custscene but not tailor the story herself, it will always you're in A, go in B ('like ep3) and the final state will always be the same ('same survivor, same state, same equipment etc...)
Thanks for your attention.

Aren't the cutscenes and dialogue the majority of the story?

[malcom155]

@marleysativa: choosing Carleyoug change the story (a little but at last it do), dialogue can change (not in this game) the story. At the end of episode three can you tell me the difference in the story ('surviving character's, final state, dialogue) between your saves with differents choices ?
And what you would answer to the post of Grey please ? I'm curious....

[MichaCHOW]

How choices work: "They affect how other characters see Lee"

How characters currently see Lee: As living! They're ghosts! Except Lee can't see any of them because they're all dead! Oh the joy of living!

[dubesor]

Originally Posted by Marleysativa

Now I'm extremely excited. Thanks for staying true to the tone of the comics!

Don't get too excited, they promised the same at Episode 1 (see page 1 of this thread) and promised change. Now we are 60% done and nothing happened

[Marleysativa]

Originally Posted by malcom155

@marleysativa: choosing Carleyoug change the story (a little but at last it do), dialogue can change (not in this game) the story. At the end of episode three can you tell me the difference in the story ('surviving character's, final state, dialogue) between your saves with differents choices ?
And what you would answer to the post of Grey please ? I'm curious....

Bear with me, I'm trying to make sure I'm understanding what you're asking so if I don't answer your question correctly, I'm sorry.

The decisions you made as the episode went along altered the episode quite a bit. Your decision regarding Lilly, how you handled the situation with Kenny's family, and your discussions with Clem. Everyone ended up at the same place but your interactions with the characters may have been much different. This isn't the final episode, we've still got two more to see how those interactions and decisions play out. It's still too early to say they have no meaning at this point.

Don't get too excited, they promised the same at Episode 1 (see page 1 of this thread) and promised change. Now we are 60% done and nothing happened

I saw them say that they were trying to make them matter further down the road (not that some don't matter now). We're only at episode 3 of 5 at the moment. I think I've just got a different opinion on what matters and what doesn't from some of you guys.

[malcom155]

@ Marleysativa i understand. For me when i play the first two episodes, i thinked the choice Carley/Doug could last until the last chapter, so this choices impact and change at last one character. I choosed who is alive and i thinked "this is great, a character change between saves". But in the third all choices are erased and you can't make any choice, you just follow the story.

We'll see, but for the 80% who left, it's too late...

[joorgen]

Originally Posted by bubbledncr

I understand where you come from - I myself am a gamer whose favorite games are RPG's where my choices affect the story.

Without wanting to spoil the Mass Effect series, I spent years looking forward to and theorizing what all the outcomes of my decisions in ME1 and ME2 would have - only to find out that the things I thought were big choices and thought would help me out/screw me over, actually had no effect at all.

And while I understand as a gamer how disappointing that is, I also understand as a developer how hard it is to make a game that rewards you for certain choices. Not only how much more expensive it is from a production standpoint, but also because rewarding people for certain choices implies that those are the correct choices, which isn't something you want to do in a game about making tough choices. But we do keep track of every choice you make, and it does affect what the other characters think of you.

I would say, as someone who knows what's coming, to wait until the end of the series to complain about whether or not your choices had any meaning. If you still don't think they did, we'd love to hear why, and suggestions for improvement. But just like the zombie apocalypse, bad things will always happen, despite your best efforts.

Oh I am definitely waiting for the end to cast my stones =P I do however always express my fears
Notice how I am on the fence sorta balancing back and forth between what to think and not going like GIVE MAH MONEY BACK!!

I must say the story you people at telltale have managed to make is an incredibly engrossing and interesting one. I am really looking forward to the last 2 episodes and hope I see it the same way you guys do =)

One question I might have though that I don't expect getting answeared is, is it hard to make a game and anticipate how its going to be recieved in an objective way? I mean since every developer spends alot of time they get attached to what they create and sorta lose their objective view on said product

[Marleysativa]

Originally Posted by malcom155

@ Marleysativa i understand. For me when i play the first two episodes, i thinked the choice Carley/Doug could last until the last chapter, so this choices impact and change at last one character. I choosed who is alive and i thinked "this is great, a character change between saves". But in the third all choices are erased and you can't make any choice, you just follow the story.

We'll see, but for the 80% who left, it's too late...

We can't say that all of our choices are for naught. Like I said, we've still got two episodes to play through. As for Doug/Carley, Katjaa, and Duck... this is the zombie apocalypse. People are going to die and we cannot expect to save everyone. This is the Walking Dead after all.

I'd say that 80% is a bit of an exaggeration considering the two polls posted so far, no?

[malcom155]

i don't speak about polls...

i speak about that '(and you'r''e right, it's not 80%, it's ONLY 72.7%):
http://steamcommunity.com/stats/TheW...d/achievements

And we are only at the middle of the game...
You can keep yoour "it's the walking dead world" argument please; I don't speak about any off the characters dead, i speak about the fact that no matters what you do, you say or anything else, nothing change... You can't change nothing ! I was just giving example

Oh, forgive me, you can change what the characters think about you. Seeing this changing anything is another story

[Master of Aeons]

In any game that isn't a sandbox RPG, A and G and Q and Z are set in stone. All of the other letters you can choose if they're upper or lower case. You still go through the alphabet and might be able to do S before R, but G and Q and Z will always happen because one story is being told. If you want a game where you can do anything, you're better off playing a Choose Your Own Adventure or Skyrim.

A game where you can fully dictate the events as a god (as was just said) is not feasible at the time. We're just past the point of the illusion of choice and are getting into the idea where you can tell one story with variations (different textures based on a psychiatrist's questions, one person swapped with another, a different set of gear, or in extreme situations an alternate path). Name a game where there are fully branching paths with multiple, mutable endings and events completely independent of the story wholly exclusive to your choices where everything is truly tailored to your choices. It's not Heavy Rain. It's not Mass Effect. It's not this game. It's only available as text thus far.

You're demanding more from a genre that's barely put on training wheels. Wait for it to reach puberty before you ask why it doesn't have boobs, to use a horrible analog.

[Marleysativa]

Originally Posted by malcom155

i don't speak about polls...

i speak about that '(and you'r''e right, it's not 80%, it's ONLY 72.7%):
http://steamcommunity.com/stats/TheW...d/achievements

And we are only at the middle of the game...
You can keep yoour "it's the walking dead world" argument please; I don't speak about any off the characters dead, i speak about the fact that no matters what you do, you say or anything else, nothing change... You can't change nothing ! I was just giving example

Oh, forgive me, you can change what the characters think about you. Seeing this changing anything is another story

There was almost the same decrease in people that completed those achievements between each episode (not to mention it doesn't take into account the Xbox360 users or the PS3). I'm talking about the polls on this site.

If you don't want me to use the "it's the Walking Dead" argument, don't bring up not having a say in other characters' deaths. I've already explained what I mean by decisions and choices. I spent the time to try and figure out what you were saying, the least you could do is do the same. I've given you examples of differences in character interactions and dialogues. So, while all players end up in generally the same place, the interactions and some events could be quite varied from others.

You're literally expecting AAA title features in an indie developed 30 dollar game.

[TheWildcard]

I'm sorry but I find it extremely funny how people are grasping at strays trying to prove that your choices have mattered so far. Especially when a telltale team member pretty much said that yeah so far things don't seem to have an impact....Seriously, wake up guys.