Limited Choices discussion (merged threads)

[Galdis]

bghjkl, treating Clem right or wrong really does affect how other characters view you. I would say this does cause a big shift in gameplay; then again I haven't done a playthrough where I do all the wrong things. While you are right - regardless of how you treat her, the game progresses exactly the same - she still does serve a purpose in terms of characterization and plot.

Rommel makes a good point - certain things just make sense out of necessity, like sticking with a group while you have a leg wound.

It makes perfect sense to investigate Clem's house because you (Lee) have no idea what's going on. Seeing as how you are technically an escaped convict, it makes sense to approach something small - one family - to keep a low profile rather than to walk in the middle of a road with a leg wound.

I feel that stopping at the Greene farm was a necessity due to the leg wound. I disagree with bghjkl; if I had a leg wound like that, I'd let it rest.

I agree that we should have gotten a choice on helping or not helping Larry and what to do at the pharmacy. Even if all it meant was him dying a lot sooner than Episode 2, it still would have made a serious impact on the plot and the other characters. Although, considering that the Meat Locker served the same purpose, this is debatable. The group would have eventually left the pharmacy because it was not a very defensible position and I agree that, with one an axe and one pistol, it would have been abandoned eventually.

While Clementine is indeed a central character, it would drastically change the narrative, how characters view Lee, and how Lee views himself if he failed to save her. Then again, the mini-games aren't really that challenging and saving her isn't that hard. Indeed, this would be a chance to change the narrative in the ways that TTG promised.

One of the things that pissed me off was how you are forced to investigate the farm. I agreed with Lilly - I wanted to just GTFO. I probably would have done something when they refused to hand over Mark - which is probably why they shoehorned you into following Kenny anyway - but again, this is another way to change the narrative and it would not have been that hard to do. Either way you'd figure it out due to Mark's disappearance, but knowing you ate him or not is prime material and I'm shocked TTG didn't use that.

Only a real dick would abandon Katjaa, in my opinion, but I agree that the option should have probably been there. I imagine some people would be more concerned with hunting down the brothers, who are far more dangerous. If this came at the expense of Katjaa's life, the impact on the story kind of explains itself.

Many decisions are purely moral and really only affect how the other characters view you: leaving David, stealing food, siding with this person or that person, and I don't care that they don't have a dramatic impact on the plot because they're not supposed to. Yet, where you'd imagine certain decisions would be different, they are not - so far, where you think your decisions should matter, they really don't because nearly the exact same thing happens regardless of what you do.

Again, I love the game and I'm gonna keep playing it, but TTG should either change their marketing message or fulfill their marketing promises. You can't have your cake and eat it, too if you don't make the cake you want to have and eat. I really want them to live up to their promises because it would make a unique experience and give them a lot of renown to succeed where so many others have failed. Keep in mind: I don't think the others failed because it was too hard, I think they failed because they lacked ambition and, sadly and more often, due to budget restraints and deadlines. I have no idea what the budget or deadline is for TTG, but they should at least be honest with us if they're going to give us something linear.

[Milosuperspesh]

you don't have to open the farm/barn door

once you undo the screws if you take a bit too long to move the door andy comes in and tells lee about the bell...

ttg can't win either way, the game is delayed, the game is too short, the game is to linear ( thats point and clicks for ya ) and the choices are blah blah blah.

mass effect cocked up the whole choice thing and thats over 10 times the size of twd.

if you think of twd has a stepping stone to how choices can work future games will do it 'better' but episodic games aren't the best way if there are 'tangents' from each big change requires a new level/map, characters, story plots which = more money spent, more work needed, more testing required etc

and then thats assuming people actually bother to find the different plot lines, you could say 80% of players will just take the existing route and not bother as wha they have is fine and great. so imo thats a waste of resources for the most part..

as i said before it is only ep2 we have 3 more, ttg should be taking note of these comments and doing something about it..

[Sergiy]

Well, there are choices that flesh out the story, and there are choices that add flavour to the game.

Story-wise it's things like Doug of Carley, did you kill X or Y and so on..

There are also flavour choices, you playing the character you want to be, feeding the children first, how to handle the suicide situation, candy bars...

Occasionaly therse intersect, and that's when the game reacts to who you are.

[SteveTheBox]

Considering i'm on my own route of the story, the only part I've noticed to bother me with limited choices was when Kenny killed Larry and at the end, you have to choose.
You've destroyed this group
You're no hero
You murdered Larry
or "..."
I really didn't want to say anything bad, because i knew what he was doing and i know it was wrong but, i didn't wanna say something harsh, i wanted to say something but i could only choose "..."
That's probably the only limited choice I've seen so far.

[Sisterofshane]

Originally Posted by SteveTheBox

Considering i'm on my own route of the story, the only part I've noticed to bother me with limited choices was when Kenny killed Larry and at the end, you have to choose.
You've destroyed this group
You're no hero
You murdered Larry
or "..."
I really didn't want to say anything bad, because i knew what he was doing and i know it was wrong but, i didn't wanna say something harsh, i wanted to say something but i could only choose "..."
That's probably the only limited choice I've seen so far.

Right?

The most disconcerting thing to me, when I played through and sided with Lilly, was not that Kenny was mad at me, it was that LEE started to treat him like he was an idiot, despite my Lee having sided with him in all of the other issues. There isn't even a "I understand, even though I don't agree" option in there, at all.

[The_Cheshire_Cat]

its almost like the game wants to drive the player to extremes

[Sisterofshane]

Originally Posted by The_Cheshire_Cat

its almost like the game wants to drive the player to extremes

Extreme choices and situations, yes, but schizophrenic character changes? No thank you.

I can imagine that the scene feels right for someone who has been anti-Kenny for the duration of the first two episodes, but if you weren't, the characters feel off. (Almost immersion breaking, in my opinion. At least from a story-telling point of view). The addition of a more neutral dialogue for both Kenny and Lee depending on the established relationship would have been welcome in my book.

It could have been as simple as omitting the vitriolic auto-dialogue exchange in the barn, and adding a less condescending (maybe even more understanding) remark on the walk back to the motor inn.

[Milosuperspesh]

yeah, i know right ?

on my first ep2 run i a'tried to save larry on the princaple that even tho larry was an asshole and we all wanted him to die i wanted to save to see what would happen give lilly some hope..

but no ttg made kenny worse than larry by jumping the gun and ending it.

then on leaving the farm i saw these options and almost let the time run out as i was like WTF ttg You give us these options ?!?!?!

the softest option is saying your no hero lee sort of reasons with kenny but the 'damage is done'

i would of prefered a

'fuck man, i know larry was a threat and all but dayum could of least given us a chance to see if he could be saved instead of just dropping the bomb on him' will redo the choices to see if that happens think i missed one..

[Galdis]

Just a note, I replayed the last scene in Episode 2 a bunch of times... If you didn't kill Larry, the most neutral response is "You're no hero". Lee goes: "You're no hero. You destroyed two lives in that meat locker." Kenny starts to walk away and Lee turns around, saying "Kenny, you're not a bad man, but fuck, what are we gonna do now?" I agree that some of the dialogue choices are annoying, this one especially. I was mad at Kenny but I sure as hell didn't blame him for what he did. However, choosing not to kill Larry seemed to make you automatically think Kenny was a heartless murderer.

[Ja1862]

We have been told that everyone will have different story’s, that we would be able to all talk about the different actions they have taken within the game and how different it all would pan out for each player…

Example 1. Save Shawn – nothing changes at all, you get told to leave the farm either way the only difference is one bit of dialogue in episode 2 from Kenny.
How it should have been. Kenny really acts different minus that one bit of dialogue.

Example 2. Save Doug or Carly, (Telltale preached that one of the people you saved would make a big difference next episode) but nope. They both basically did the same thing, they just saved you with different weapons.
How it should have been. When you save one of the characters actually allow the story to change, just a tad, if you say it will please let it!
The options for how their stories could have branched out are endless, yet they basically did the same thing and played background parts.

Example 3. Play mean or nice, however you play the story stays the same, everything happens exactly the same way bar a few different dialogue choices that don’t really affect any one.
How it should have been. See Dead State, Project Zomboid and how they will create good NPC interaction. Sure this is a story driven game but one spout how different each players experience will be when it ends up just as limited if not even less so than Heavy Rain.

Example 4. Save Larry. Well he dies either way… Lame.
How it should have been. If you actually save him he lives, he can call you over at the end of episode 2 as he did in 1 but this time he offers you a hand and thanks you for saving him. You have lived with him for 3 months saved his life twice and his finally starting to give you the benefit of the doubt. That is character development, not I’m angry I don’t trust you… even when we spend 3 months together my opinion never changes.

It seems like episode 2 takes place straight after episode 1 (minus the new useless guy) since everyone seems to have the same opinions, nobody had developed at all within those 3 months.

[Red Panda]

The stories are different. Think of it like an alternate reality. There's some small differences, but the large events are the same.

Take Shawn. Yeah, he dies either way, but in one reality Kenny is pissed at your for not trying to save his son and in the other he's not.

Take Carley and Doug. Yeah, they fill the same role, but they're two different people.

In one reality Clem eats human meat while in another she doesn't.

In one reality Lee might be vengeful while in another he's forgiving.

Major plot points and story developments may stay the same but the story does change.

It's like life: we're all born and die and nothing we do in-between will change that but your journey is largely up to you.

[Milosuperspesh]

Originally Posted by Red Panda

The stories are different. Think of it like an alternate reality. There's some small differences, but the large events are the same.

Take Shawn. Yeah, he dies either way, but in one reality Kenny is pissed at your for not trying to save his son and in the other he's not.

Take Carley and Doug. Yeah, they fill the same role, but they're two different people.

In one reality Clem eats human meat while in another she doesn't.

In one reality Lee might be vengeful while in another he's forgiving.

Major plot points and story developments may stay the same but the story does change.

It's like life: we're all born and die and nothing we do in-between will change that but your journey is largely up to you.

spot on

The thing is some people would still complain even if we got lot's of differences, they'd say theres too many options with not enough space to explore them in (3 saves) unless your tech savvy and move them around..

then thats open to bugs and issues.. oh wait..

so even if they gave us more saves slots and fixed the ps3 save issue . what would happen ?

there'd be more complaints about delays to put all this stuff in.. oh wait...

then after all that they'd then pick up on the lack of info.. oh wait...

then it would be an issue with the gameplay/graphics... oh wait...

so what esle is there ? the price/sale, no season pass for xbox, oh wait...

and when ttg do say stuff it's always mis understood....catch my drift...

[Ja1862]

Originally Posted by Milosuperspesh

spot on

The thing is some people would still complain even if we got lot's of differences, they'd say theres too many options with not enough space to explore them in (3 saves) unless your tech savvy and move them around..

then thats open to bugs and issues.. oh wait..

so even if they gave us more saves slots and fixed the ps3 save issue . what would happen ?

there'd be more complaints about delays to put all this stuff in.. oh wait...

then after all that they'd then pick up on the lack of info.. oh wait...

then it would be an issue with the gameplay/graphics... oh wait...

so what esle is there ? the price/sale, no season pass for xbox, oh wait...

and when ttg do say stuff it's always mis understood....catch my drift...

Or they shouldn't have said that all choices matter and change the game for each player... oh wait...

They shouldn't have acted like they had created a great story driven game with branching paths for people to enjoy... oh wait...

There would not be any complaints about delays if they had stuck to their original dates... oh wait...

When Telltale does say stuff it's misunderstood because they purposely bend the truth to help sales, that's not a bad thing since they are business men.
When episode one came out everyone was under the impression that each play through would be vastly different, but we all learnt that was not the case.

I'm not sure why anyone would complain that there are lots of different branching stories it would just give more replay value. Unlike what we have now.

[Milosuperspesh]

Originally Posted by Ja1862

Or they shouldn't have said that all choices matter and change the game for each player... oh wait...
.

so, if person a) saves duck, goes pro kenny, saves doug
then person b) saves shawn, goes pro larry, saves carley


thats still different..it sounded like they promised more..

Originally Posted by Ja1862

They shouldn't have acted like they had created a great story driven game with branching paths for people to enjoy... oh wait....

yes the game is story driven, how you rate it is your personal opinion and i say it's great and i enjoy it..

[bghjkl]

Originally Posted by Milosuperspesh

so, if person a) saves duck, goes pro kenny, saves doug
then person b) saves shawn, goes pro larry, saves carley

....persons A and B will play the exact same game encountering the exact same events and the story will progress exactly the same with absolutely 0 impact or variation on the future direction of the story.

Just saiyan.

[Milosuperspesh]

agree to disagree

if the game was the exact same the stats wouldn't change..

if there is no impact, why bother with the choices at all ?

[Cyreen]

I think it's a bit like the self-healing hypothesis of time travel (geeky, I know), wherein the regardless of what is changed, time has a way of repairing itself so the story plays out.

Even having played the first two episodes through a few times, I get responses from characters that surprise me. The psychology is interesting.

[Christoaster]

Here's my take on this.

Larry is a selfish bastard and only views Lee as a murderer and nothing will change that. Even If you agree with him at pharmacy. If Larry changes his view upon Lee simply because he agrees with him would be silly and then you would be complaining how Larry changes his perspective on things too quickly which would be similar to Glenn having two different perspective. Yet I would expect Larry treats you with a little respect for siding with him but he's too ignorant.

I have to disagree what you said about Glenn. Think about it, wouldn't you be conflicted if you had to witness the choices play out with handing her the gun? Glenn isn't the best in situations like this and all he is showing is doubt and he wonders what would happen if you handed her the gun or not. Really it's perfect character development because it shows Glenn views things from all angles and ponders what would happen if things went the other way around. All Glenn was doing is asking Lee why he hadn't done the opposite thing, that only shows his concern, not opinion on the ordeal/situation.

[Cyreen]

Originally Posted by Christoaster

I have to disagree what you said about Glenn. Think about it, wouldn't you be conflicted if you had to witness the choices play out with handing her the gun?

I haven't read the comics but being particularly intrigued by Glenn's conflict before leaving, I checked his Wiki page. His conflict and Larry's death in the game seem to nicely foreshadow Glenn successfully resuscitating his wife after her suicide attempt in the comics, which I thought was neat.

[trd84]

I enjoy the game, But they advertized about choices matter too much. It made the expectations high, and they haven't lived up to it. I've played lots of games with choices impacting the game just as much, without it being advertized.