F*** Kenny

[YamiRaziel]

Originally Posted by Cyreen

I've never understood the need to follow anyone, least of all anyone as mentally unstable as Lilly or as self-motivated as Kenny. Lilly was fully prepared to throw the group out on the street (kids and all), long before daddy dearest became spam.

Technically, Lilly did get away with murder, because she has to go murder more people elsewhere, but evidently that's the Governor's fault. Ahhh, poor Lilly.

!

Lilly was prepared to throw the group out on the streets? Haha, that's so untrue. Actually she was the one that told Lee not to bring new people into the group, then the current members were already starving. You perceive it as throwing people out and I see it as looking for OUR group.

She never treated the kids badly. You're really trying to make her look as black as possible, right?

Lilly got away with murder? So did Kenny and so did Lee. You're quite hypocritical on this one.
The statement about the Governor looks like pure spite. Who did Lilly kill there? Enemies and a tyrant!

[8Bit_System]

Originally Posted by YamiRaziel

Lilly was prepared to throw the group out on the streets? Haha, that's so untrue. Actually she was the one that told Lee not to bring new people into the group, then the current members were already starving. You perceive it as throwing people out and I see it as looking for OUR group.

She never treated the kids badly. You're really trying to make her look as black as possible, right? ...

In episode 1 Lily certainly jumped on Carley for saving Lee & Co. in Macon. She obviously ordered to keep the doors shut, no matter what happens. Carley and Glenn ignored her "order", saving our group.

You are speaking of episode 2, there Lily lessons Lee about bringing Ben and "will die soon" dude with them.

[YamiRaziel]

Originally Posted by 8Bit_System

In episode 1 Lily certainly jumped on Carley for saving Lee & Co. in Macon. She obviously ordered to keep the doors shut, no matter what happens. Carley and Glenn ignored her "order", saving our group.

You are speaking of episode 2, there Lily lessons Lee about bringing Ben and "will die soon" dude with them.

Yeah and that's really hypocritical of you. It's okay when she's taking care of the group in ep. 2 but in ep. 1 she's the bad one for not letting Carley and Glenn save you.
Well she doesn't want them to save you because she doesn't know who you are. You might be dangerous and the kid you brought could've been bitten.

She says it very well in ep. 2 "We're not responsible for every struggling survivor out there"
She had people to take care in ep. 1. Just because Lee is us, that doesn't mean she knew she can trust us.
And guess what happened. In ep. 2 one of the people she accepted into the group smashed her father's brains...

[8Bit_System]

Where did I say if anything Lily did was ok, or not? I didn't state an oppinion, I just pointed out some facts, facts that you had wrong.

You shouldn't start trying to bite everyone who criticises you, not everyone here is trying to hurt you. Jeez...

[YamiRaziel]

Originally Posted by 8Bit_System

Where did I say if anything Lily did was ok, or not? I didn't state an oppinion, I just pointed out some facts, facts that you had wrong.

You shouldn't start trying to bite everyone who criticises you, not everyone here is trying to hurt you. Jeez...

Well my original post was not towards you, you joined the little debate so I assumed you were stating some sort of opinion.
I'm not biting anyone, I'm just defending my opinion

[8Bit_System]

Originally Posted by YamiRaziel

Well my original post was not towards you, you joined the little debate so I assumed you were stating some sort of opinion.
I'm not biting anyone, I'm just defending my opinion

That is how open forums work. If you wanted to discuss this matter in private, you should us the PM system.

P.S.: Apology accepted.

[Cyreen]

Originally Posted by Sir Fruitcakes

Kenny Could very well have been right--except for the fact that he was wrong, if his lips did start moving as many believe.

As already stated by Telltale, the lips moving was meant to be ambigious; reviving or reanimating? Could have been either. Could it have been handled better? Undoubtedly, but then retrospect's a bitch.

Originally Posted by YamiRaziel

Lilly was prepared to throw the group out on the streets? Haha, that's so untrue.

Spiteful? Really? We are talking about fictional characters, right? 8Bit was merely clarifying, he's right, I was referring to episode 1. As for "as black as possible", I'm just suggesting you take off the rose tinted glasses. Lilly wasn't about "taking care" of anyone. Lilly was all about control.

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by YamiRaziel

Yeah and that's really hypocritical of you. It's okay when she's taking care of the group in ep. 2 but in ep. 1 she's the bad one for not letting Carley and Glenn save you.
Well she doesn't want them to save you because she doesn't know who you are. You might be dangerous and the kid you brought could've been bitten.

She says it very well in ep. 2 "We're not responsible for every struggling survivor out there"
She had people to take care in ep. 1. Just because Lee is us, that doesn't mean she knew she can trust us.
And guess what happened. In ep. 2 one of the people she accepted into the group smashed her father's brains...

Back to the whole "But he killed Larry!!!" approach? :P
Most Anti-Kennys (yes that's a term) fail to include why he did so. Let's look over the situation again.

1. Kenny is trapped in meat locker with three others and a little girl. His son has just been tricked into eating human meat and his family are trapped outside with the phyco cannibals. Suddenly the huge guy Larry, collapses and has a heart attack. You realise that if the guy is dead then EVERYONE is screwed. Especially your wife and kid, who will be turned to meat and won't even get a quick death, they'll probably be chopped up bits at a time but kept alive. You've seen how quickly dead people turn and you can't wait for him to start moving, because they jump up quickly and bite the first thing they see and then move through the group. Remember this guy is huge and a salt lick isn't a efficient weapon. But Lee and Lilly don't see that. They are gambling with the lives of everyone including YOUR FAMILY for one person. You take the initiative And kill the guy, refusing to stand by and watch them make a mistake. It's horrible but it has to be done.

That's Kennys point of view. And I dont understand why people think he's so evil, and selfish and mean for putting family first. Its human nature.

I also made one for Lilly. :P

"Carely just called me a bitch and I never liked her! She's probs the traitor anyway because I...uh well I don't know about her parents! Yeah! There probaby like the bandits! And she always likes to see what we got! She must be evil! I think I'll kill her now!!"

I honestly understand that her dads death must have been traumatising but its no excuse for straight up murdering your own people for NO GOOD REASON. In fact, no reason at all apart from that Lilly was angry and didnt like her. Also maybe because Carely often went against her and challenged her power. I'm beginning to think that Lilly may have had a grudge against Carely and was such a control freak she decided to kill her. I don't understand people who blame Lilly's killing on a hard decision Kenny made that may have saved everyone's lives. Literally everyone. I really hope that's the last time I have to type that.

And about Lilly's paranoia, I don't think it was healthy in either eps to be honest. What kind of person sits and watches a family of three and another person get eaten. Especially since she gave Carely such crap for it. Can't she understand why Carely couldn't just sit and watch them die or has her dad screwed her up so much, she can't understand. Same with Ben and the legless guy. If you don't agree fine, but do you have to give Kenny and Lee and Mark such crap about it? And do you have to start yelling at the poor new guy who watched his friend get eaten and his teacher get caught in a bear trap?

Also have to go to bed, so I'm counting on other Kenny bros to fight the good fight. :P

[8Bit_System]

Originally Posted by Wrighty

Back to the whole "But he killed Larry!!!" approach? :P
Most Anti-Kennys (yes that's a term) fail to include why he did so. Let's look over the situation again.

1. Kenny is trapped in meat locker with three others and a little girl. His son has just been tricked into eating human meat and his family are trapped outside with the phyco cannibals. Suddenly the huge guy Larry, collapses and has a heart attack. You realise that if the guy is dead then EVERYONE is screwed. Especially your wife and kid, who will be turned to meat and won't even get a quick death, they'll probably be chopped up bits at a time but kept alive. ...
... That's Kennys point of view. And I dont understand why people think he's so evil, and selfish and mean for putting family first. Its human nature.

I can not agree at all. Kenny never really thinks about anyone else than himself.

He dumps Lee the second he disagrees even once and doesn't help him out of trouble anymore. That is because Kenny is a selfish coward, but his general ego trip also shows very clearly in episode 3, when Kenny needs to stop the train. In his eyes, Duck failed him and he doesn't want to take on that confrontation.

Kenny is all Kenny... and that's what he got now!

Originally Posted by Wrighty

I also made one for Lilly. :P

"Carely just called me a bitch and I never liked her! She's probs the traitor anyway because I...uh well I don't know about her parents! Yeah! There probaby like the bandits! And she always likes to see what we got! She must be evil! I think I'll kill her now!!"

I honestly understand that her dads death must have been traumatising but its no excuse for straight up murdering your own people for NO GOOD REASON. In fact, no reason at all apart from that Lilly was angry and didnt like her. Also maybe because Carely often went against her and challenged her power. I'm beginning to think that Lilly may have had a grudge against Carely and was such a control freak she decided to kill her. I don't understand people who blame Lilly's killing on a hard decision Kenny made that may have saved everyone's lives. Literally everyone. I really hope that's the last time I have to type that.

And about Lilly's paranoia, I don't think it was healthy in either eps to be honest. What kind of person sits and watches a family of three and another person get eaten. Especially since she gave Carely such crap for it. Can't she understand why Carely couldn't just sit and watch them die or has her dad screwed her up so much, she can't understand. Same with Ben and the legless guy. If you don't agree fine, but do you have to give Kenny and Lee and Mark such crap about it? And do you have to start yelling at the poor new guy who watched his friend get eaten and his teacher get caught in a bear trap?

I also have to disagree here. Lily didn't plan anything, she snapped. That made her a murderer and a persona non grata to that group.

It is a mirror to Lee, he snapped once and killed a man in cold blood. He was also going to be punished by "his" group, called the United States of Ameria, at that time.

Originally Posted by Wrighty

Also have to go to bed, so I'm counting on other Kenny bros to fight the good fight. :P

Sleep well.

[Rock114]

Nicely put Wrighty. Even if you think it's wrong to help Kenny with Larry, you are putting not only your life on the line, but Kenny's, Lilly's, Clem's, Kat's and Duck's. If Larry reanimated, someone would likely have been bitten. Probably you, if you were the one doing CPR. Maybe Lilly too. We've all seen how well Larry can take a punch, so Kenny would have no chance of taking him down alone. Kenny did the smart thing. He made sure a potentially massive threat didn't materialize. That's the exact same thing Larry and Lilly tried to do with Duck in the pharmacy. But when the tables turn and it's someone that Lilly cares about who may need a good head smashing?

If it was Kenny that went down Larry and Lilly would have argued for a good head smash. Because it was the smart choice. If I were in that situation I wouldn't want to let someone else put my life, and my family's life, on the line for the asshole who made the first attempt at killing a member of the group, argued for throwing my 10-year-old son out the door to be eaten alive, and who may just die and possibly kill everyone in the room.

[YamiRaziel]

If it was reversed and Kenny was the one down and Larry wanted me to smash his head, I wouldn't do it again.
People constantly complain that Lee was putting people in risk. No he was not. The only people that risked their lives were Lilly and Lee. And they can make choices for themselves.
How many times have we seen Lee kill walkers singlehandedly? A lot. Some of them (Lilly and Lee) could've got bitten if Larry turned but still they would've kill him. Not that hard. Lee held that zombie teacher for more than a minute and almost destroyed it's head on the sides of the truck. They could've taken care of walker Larry. It was their lives at stake, and their choice!
Don't make it as if Kenny did them some huge favour. He stripped Larry of any chance for live. He did it not to protect Clementine, Lilly or Lee because we know he doesn't give a shit about them (especially since you are doing CPR). He did it so he can go faster to his stupid family. He killed a member of the group in cold blood (the first one to do it) so that he can save his family (which I had to save btw).
Kenny is the most selfish and egocentric person in this game. He destroyed both Lilly and Larry's lives in that meat locker.

Cyreen, I've never seen that "control" Lilly supposedly love so much. All I've seen is a person who's making tough decisions for the group. She doesn't enjoy being in control, there is just nobody else.

As for Carley, I cannot agree that Lilly killed her because Carley always talked back. Because that never happened you know. Carley always stayed away from major debates and conflict, she didn't spoke to Lilly at all. She was always trying to avoid giving her opinion. Saying that Carley was some sort of leader danger to Lilly is ridiculous. She did open her mouth once, after she was already a suspect and that was the worst timing possible.

To me personally Kenny is the worst in this group and the most unforgivable one. Lilly and Lee have both done mistakes but in my eyes they are always trying to do the best for everybody.

[FarmerJoe]

Did Kenny check Larry's life signs?offer to take his pulse? wait more than 5-10 seconds before he acted? Lilly was clearly distressed and answered Lee's question about Larry's breathing with an uncertain "No,I don't think so" Why didn't Lee or Kenny offer to check themselves, to make certain that he had no pulse?

Kenny was too impulsive and damningly, for me, showed very little if not any compassion following his action.To me it came across as:
Okay,now that nuisance is taken care of, everyone get back to focusing on MY family. Hell, he would of left Lilly to be killed by the bandits or walkers when escaping the motel.Another sign of his vindictive nature.

[Cyreen]

Originally Posted by YamiRaziel

Cyreen, I've never seen that "control" Lilly supposedly love so much. All I've seen is a person who's making tough decisions for the group. She doesn't enjoy being in control, there is just nobody else.

First, Kenny killed Larry because he was scared.

Second, Carley was constantly at odds with Lilly, first in the pharmacy, defending the newcomers both in the pharmacy and the inn, then when she drew on the St. John's at the gate, probably even when she left the inn to return to the dairy that night and then confronting her in the RV. Carley made it quite clear that she didn't take orders from Lilly. I have no doubt Lilly saw Carley as undermining her authority.

If you didn't see Lilly's need to control, then you weren't paying attention. She choose to take responsibility in order to have control.

[Kiel555]

Originally Posted by Wrighty

Back to the whole "But he killed Larry!!!" approach? :P
Most Anti-Kennys (yes that's a term) fail to include why he did so. Let's look over the situation again.

1. Kenny is trapped in meat locker with three others and a little girl. His son has just been tricked into eating human meat and his family are trapped outside with the phyco cannibals. Suddenly the huge guy Larry, collapses and has a heart attack. You realise that if the guy is dead then EVERYONE is screwed. Especially your wife and kid, who will be turned to meat and won't even get a quick death, they'll probably be chopped up bits at a time but kept alive. You've seen how quickly dead people turn and you can't wait for him to start moving, because they jump up quickly and bite the first thing they see and then move through the group. Remember this guy is huge and a salt lick isn't a efficient weapon. But Lee and Lilly don't see that. They are gambling with the lives of everyone including YOUR FAMILY for one person. You take the initiative And kill the guy, refusing to stand by and watch them make a mistake. It's horrible but it has to be done.

That's Kennys point of view. And I dont understand why people think he's so evil, and selfish and mean for putting family first. Its human nature.

Also have to go to bed, so I'm counting on other Kenny bros to fight the good fight. :P

I first started having concerns about Kenny when Kat described their car ride from Atlanta to Hershel's farm. She said that they passed a lot of people who needed help and even ran over a few but Kenny just kept driving. Sure I was new to the game and only knew Hershal from the TV show but even then I thought something was wrong with Kenny and kept my distance from him.

I can accept the merits of wanting to protect your family but not if it means you cannot help anyone else, other people are only there to help you and rather than try to help someone in your group it is better to kill them or let them be killed by your inaction.

Bottom line is that Kenny is afraid. His fear takes over and he makes mistakes that cost lives, relationships and trust.

[Rock114]

He DID wait. He didn't drop the salt lick on his head as soon as he hit the ground. Lilly spent a good amount of time trying to revive him. Whether you help Kenny or not, he feels bad. He's got a horrified look on his face, he didn't want to kill anyone. He even, if you help him, follows it up with "God help us" and apologizes. I know saying sorry doesn't cut it, but he didn't take pleasure in doing what he did.

You make it sound like he's been planning to murder Larry for months, and he cares for no one not in his family. He saves you in episode 1 no matter what. For all he knew he was going to run straight into a gaggle of walkers, but he went back inside anyway to save someone he had met earlier that day. That's courage in my book. A true coward wouldn't have gone back in even for his best friend. Yet even if you side with Larry and tell him that you have to throw out his son, he comes back for you and saves your life. He's brash, no doubt, but he's been a good man to me and has saved me more times than Lilly has. He's saved me more times than I've saved him. Plenty of chances to leave me, and not one time so far has he let me down even when simply running would have been safer and faster.

[Kelium]

Originally Posted by Rock114

He DID wait. He didn't drop the salt lick on his head as soon as he hit the ground. Lilly spent a good amount of time trying to revive him. Whether you help Kenny or not, he feels bad. He's got a horrified look on his face, he didn't want to kill anyone. He even, if you help him, follows it up with "God help us" and apologizes. I know saying sorry doesn't cut it, but he didn't take pleasure in doing what he did.

You make it sound like he's been planning to murder Larry for months, and he cares for no one not in his family. He saves you in episode 1 no matter what. For all he knew he was going to run straight into a gaggle of walkers, but he went back inside anyway to save someone he had met earlier that day. That's courage in my book. A true coward wouldn't have gone back in even for his best friend. Yet even if you side with Larry and tell him that you have to throw out his son, he comes back for you and saves your life. He's brash, no doubt, but he's been a good man to me and has saved me more times than Lilly has. He's saved me more times than I've saved him. Plenty of chances to leave me, and not one time so far has he let me down even when simply running would have been safer and faster.

I think the perspective of Kenny really depends on how you side with him early in the game. I really like Kenny and sided with him early, doing what we did to Larry was a horrible thing but I didnt believe the man would come back alive. I can understand though why people wouldnt like Kenny if you dont side with him in the game though. But in my play through I have sided with him and I can understand his motivations for protecting his family in the crazy apocalypse. So there thats what I think.

[YamiRaziel]

Originally Posted by Rock114

He DID wait. He didn't drop the salt lick on his head as soon as he hit the ground. Lilly spent a good amount of time trying to revive him. Whether you help Kenny or not, he feels bad. He's got a horrified look on his face, he didn't want to kill anyone. He even, if you help him, follows it up with "God help us" and apologizes. I know saying sorry doesn't cut it, but he didn't take pleasure in doing what he did.

You make it sound like he's been planning to murder Larry for months, and he cares for no one not in his family. He saves you in episode 1 no matter what. For all he knew he was going to run straight into a gaggle of walkers, but he went back inside anyway to save someone he had met earlier that day. That's courage in my book. A true coward wouldn't have gone back in even for his best friend. Yet even if you side with Larry and tell him that you have to throw out his son, he comes back for you and saves your life. He's brash, no doubt, but he's been a good man to me and has saved me more times than Lilly has. He's saved me more times than I've saved him. Plenty of chances to leave me, and not one time so far has he let me down even when simply running would have been safer and faster.

In my game he saved me only in the drug store and that's because he knew he needed me. He couldn't have control over the group without me. Not to mention that I fed his family and gave him my axe. He owed me one.
In your game he might be saving you, but that's because you're his closest friend. Don't let that fool you, he is not a team player.
In my game he left me for dead too many times and I haven't done anything, ANYTHING to deserve that. Yeah, I didn't smash Larry's head and instead helped Lilly with the CPR. I don't see how that hurt him. As I say, even if Larry was to reanimate, he would've bitten us, not him.
He hates me for making him show his true colours and not running to save his family, which in the end I did.

Of course it's due to the player whether Kenny will save you or not, but his backing up requires too much. I'm not there to serve him and if being a member of this group is not enough for him, he can get the fuck out of my sight.

[Rock114]

Originally Posted by YamiRaziel

In my game he saved me only in the drug store and that's because he knew he needed me. He couldn't have control over the group without me. Not to mention that I fed his family and gave him my axe. He owed me one.
In your game he might be saving you, but that's because you're his closest friend. Don't let that fool you, he is not a team player.
In my game he left me for dead too many times and I haven't done anything, ANYTHING to deserve that. Yeah, I didn't smash Larry's head and instead helped Lilly with the CPR. I don't see how that hurt him. As I say, even if Larry was to reanimate, he would've bitten us, not him.
He hates me for making him show his true colours and not running to save his family, which in the end I did.

Of course it's due to the player whether Kenny will save you or not, but his backing up requires too much. I'm not there to serve him and if being a member of this group is not enough for him, he can get the fuck out of my sight.

He didn't save you because he wanted control of the group or a tool to save his family, he did it because it was the right thing to do. He even says "no one else is getting eaten today" when he picks you up. It was his plan that got almost everyone out of the pharmacy. When he took your axe, it's because he knew that Carley had a gun and was damn good with it. He, and everyone else, had nothing. So he asked for something to defend THE GROUP with. Lilly didn't come up with a plan to save everyone in the pharmacy, Kenny did. She helped her father get to the truck. Kenny cleared the way to the truck, ran back into the pharmacy with Larry (aparently he didn't need so much help after all) to get everyone else out. He realized that someone had been left behind and risked his life to go back into a building that was practically overflowing with walkers to save that person's life.

And how many members did the group need to lose at the dairy? Mark was dead, and from where I was standing Larry was on his way out. If Lilly or Lee, or god forbid both, was bitten because they tried to save Larry when he was already dead, would it have been worth it? If anyone dies needlessly, but because it was "their choice", I should be ok with it? If Kenny hadn't acted, Larry MIGHT be alive. But then again, as many as 4 group members may have been killed. He was truly scared of Larry coming back, and I was too. You can see the fear in his face. You can see how horrified he is after the fact. Even if you tried to save Larry, you can see on his face that he took no pleasure in doing it.

[YamiRaziel]

Originally Posted by Rock114

He didn't save you because he wanted control of the group or a tool to save his family, he did it because it was the right thing to do. He even says "no one else is getting eaten today" when he picks you up. It was his plan that got almost everyone out of the pharmacy. When he took your axe, it's because he knew that Carley had a gun and was damn good with it. He, and everyone else, had nothing. So he asked for something to defend THE GROUP with. Lilly didn't come up with a plan to save everyone in the pharmacy, Kenny did. She helped her father get to the truck. Kenny cleared the way to the truck, ran back into the pharmacy with Larry (aparently he didn't need so much help after all) to get everyone else out. He realized that someone had been left behind and risked his life to go back into a building that was practically overflowing with walkers to save that person's life.

And how many members did the group need to lose at the dairy? Mark was dead, and from where I was standing Larry was on his way out. If Lilly or Lee, or god forbid both, was bitten because they tried to save Larry when he was already dead, would it have been worth it? If anyone dies needlessly, but because it was "their choice", I should be ok with it? If Kenny hadn't acted, Larry MIGHT be alive. But then again, as many as 4 group members may have been killed. He was truly scared of Larry coming back, and I was too. You can see the fear in his face. You can see how horrified he is after the fact. Even if you tried to save Larry, you can see on his face that he took no pleasure in doing it.

Point taken for the first paragraph. You convinced me that he might have not yet become the heartless asshole he is now.

As for the second paragraph, you should be ok with it. It is not Kenny's place to decide or choose. He's nobody, so he should go calm Clem and let the adults deal with it. Lee and Lilly decided to risk their lives, it was their CHOICE. Who the hell he think he is to not let them make it.
And no, one walker Larry wouldn't have killed all of them. He could've bitten somebody but Lilly and Lee would've killed him even at the cost of their lives. It was their choice, they don't need Kenny to tell them whether to do it or not. Larry could've lived! He wasn't dead yet. There was hope, until Kenny stripped everybody from it.
Kenny killed Larry because it was delaying us from his family, that's the simple truth. Had he cared for anybody's well-being he wouldn't have murdered a man in the most gruesome way in front of a little child and that man's daughter.

[DreadMagus]

Originally Posted by Rock114

He didn't save you because he wanted control of the group or a tool to save his family, he did it because it was the right thing to do. He even says "no one else is getting eaten today" when he picks you up. It was his plan that got almost everyone out of the pharmacy. When he took your axe, it's because he knew that Carley had a gun and was damn good with it. He, and everyone else, had nothing. So he asked for something to defend THE GROUP with. Lilly didn't come up with a plan to save everyone in the pharmacy, Kenny did. She helped her father get to the truck. Kenny cleared the way to the truck, ran back into the pharmacy with Larry (aparently he didn't need so much help after all) to get everyone else out. He realized that someone had been left behind and risked his life to go back into a building that was practically overflowing with walkers to save that person's life.

Ironically, this is what pisses me off about him.

Episode 1, Kenny was THE MAN.

Episode 2, it was all WUT DID U DO 4 MAI FAMALEE.......

But I've listed that elsewhere.

Despite this, of the new group, if I have to make a choice that's not Clem... Kenny will be the one I save.