F*** Kenny

[Rommel49]

Originally Posted by Sisterofshane

Kenny has tasked himself with fixing the motor home - some people might call that worthless, but it certainly isn't "sitting around" or "doing nothing". It also makes more sense, because as I understand, he believes that the group should abandon the Motor Inn and find a better spot. He is doing what he believes to be the smarter option (and frankly I agree with him - it's getting obvious that if we stay at the Motor Inn, we are all going to starve). Also, he was part of the group that went out hunting - so we can't say that Kenny has done less then Larry (note I never said that Larry contributed less, he is just limited in the WAY he can contribute, which overall limits his usefulness).

And you falsely assume that anyone other than Lee has TIME to help Katjaa get away from the dead Teacher. Lee saves her pretty quickly (before anyone else, including Larry and Mark can respond), and then becomes involved in a struggle himself. I can imagine no one tries to shoot the walker, because Lee is too close, leaving the person with the axe scrambling to help (and really the only person who can do so). So, in that situation, there's not much Kenny could have done to help, beyond making sure that if Lee gets eaten, that the Walker doesn't attack anyone else.

And Ben is barely more than a kid, having just had a traumatic event, and finding himself alone amongst a group of strangers. I don't think we can fault him for not considering that we might not know that everyone has the potential to become a Walker. In fact, he presumes that any group that's been around this long has to know this already. He really is the only reason that we know that all of the dead becomes walkers as soon as we do, which is helpful (no matter which way you want to swing it).

As for Larry's military knowledge, it does make him valuable (Lee even has a chance to assert this at the St. John's Farm), however it only has the potential to help until it is applied. As far as we know, Lily is the only one to apply any military knowledge to the groups routine, forcing the adults to train with their rifles to become more accurate, lethal shooters. What was it you said about potential, now?

Back to my original point, what we see with Larry (and by extension, Lilly), is an unwillingness to change the status quo, even if the change has the potential to benefit their survival. We see this when we first meet them - the two of them being unwilling to help out Kenny and Lee even though it is eventually Lee who is capable of getting Larry his life-saving medication (which they were trying to get even before he had the heart attack), and again with Ben, who had information that would have possibly saved the entire group a lot of grief. (I can imagine had Lee and Kenny not been there, Lilly wouldn't even have tried to find who needed help in the woods, and by default would have been killed once Larry finally has his fatal heart attack and comes back as a Walker.)

Except for the small detail that with Kenny's whole "fix the RV and leave" plan, is a plan to abandon the group (as stated by Lee, Mark, and others). Kenny never extends an invitation for the group to join him, just Lee (and presumably even then only when on good terms). A plan that basically entails abandoning the group, isn't really of benefit to it. Even ignoring that sticky widget, when it comes to a survival situation, the thing that benefits the group most is unity of direction and purpose, splitting that focus (e.g. whether to stay to make the place liveable or bug out) results in lower chances of success for either direction.

As I said, after Katjaa's attacked, both Larry or Mark will help Lee with the walker in the pickup, Kenny never does (despite the fact he was there to get the news that the pickup patient dies). Considering the smallest guy in the group and the gray-haired old man can get there in time to try to help Lee atleast, that doesn't leave Kenny with much excuse for not even making an apparent attempt.

Also, Katjaa herself notes that she didn't see any bites on her patient after the attack, so odds are, they would've figured it out regardless of Ben's presence.

"As far as we know", the simple fact Lee brings up Larry's experience when questioned about the camp's leadership (and the fact we've seen Lilly defer to her father) implies that it has come up.

As I pointed out, while it's true they were trying to break into the pharmacy before Lee got there, it's a bit silly to say it was just for Larry's medication. Simply because odds are everybody's going to need stuff like antibiotics eventually so they don't die as a result of everyday injuries (cut yourself with a knife, hit your thumb with a hammer? All those are now potentially fatal events).

It's also kinda silly to blame Lily or Larry for not being all that trusting of people they don't know... Hell, even in a non-apocalyptic scenario you shouldn't let strangers stay the night your house where your family sleeps, pick up hitchhikers, etc. Seriously, out of the three groups of outsiders we see her encounter, one consists of cannibals. Even then, we see that she's a lot more willing to accept outsiders as long as they show they can contribute in advance (which neither Ben nor Lee's group did), and once they were there it's not like Lilly or Larry even attempted to kick their groups out (Lee and Duck being specific exceptions, since they thought Duck was bitten and Larry knew Lee was a convicted murderer).

[Downytax841]

Kenny ok, he didn't give me a hard time, he also seems to like me as leader of the group.

[Farlander]

I don't hate Kenny, but I hate the fact that he doesn't have my back because I tried to save Larry. I personally think that the best solution to the meat locker situation would be to ask Kenny to stand over Larry with the salt lick, and if he sees Larry becoming zombified, then kill him. But, yeah. I asked him if he would be so eager to kill if it would be Katjaa or Duck. And he wouldn't have been. And that's understandable.

And if in Episode 3 Katjaa will be in danger of being dead and zombified, I'm sure as hell will try to save her first and not let Lilly kill her prematurely. Although I don't think that this will happen, but I do feel that sooner or later there's going to be a situation opposite to what happened in the meat locker, i.e. Kenny and Lilly will switch places. I want as many people to survive in the group as possible.

[YamiRaziel]

Jazzy, I don't think that was a game glitch. It's just that the Kenny doesn't accept the "We reason with him" option. He wants you to be 100% behind him, not trying to reason with people. He shows that in the barn scene.

[The_Ripper]

Originally Posted by YamiRaziel

Jazzy, I don't think that was a game glitch. It's just that the Kenny doesn't accept the "We reason with him" option. He wants you to be 100% behind him, not trying to reason with people. He shows that in the barn scene.

It's not a glitch or bug, it's a game design failure (I need to copyright this)

This means that the game designers (Most Telltale guys that post over here) decided THAT concrete answer would make the difference on siding Kenny or not instead the next one... which I think it's wrong. The proof it's Kenny saying that Lee wanted to throw Duck out if Lee said that Kenny should reason with Larry. This is not true.

[Farlander]

This means that the game designers (Most Telltale guys that post over here) decided THAT concrete answer would make the difference on siding Kenny or not instead the next one... which I think it's wrong. The proof it's Kenny saying that Lee wanted to throw Duck out if Lee said that Kenny should reason with Larry. This is not true.

Yeah, that bugged me, that the 'we reason with him' was 'siding with Larry' at the end of Ep1... at first I thought it was a glitch, because at the end of Ep1 Kenny still added 'especially a good friend' after the 'no one dies today' line. But apparently, my Kenny forgot he ever said that in Ep2

[YamiRaziel]

I think it makes sense. Kenny is not only all the things I said before about him, but is also a hypocrite.
In my playthrough I saved Shawn, and later sided with Larry because it was their group and not ours (lies, I did it mostly because I officially hate Kenny). However I did fed Duck with the energy bar cause he is a kid after all and apparently Kenny is too dumb to look for food himself.
He blamed for not saving Duck twice. Then in episode 2 Kenny said I'm not welcomed to leave with him. After I fed Duck (Clem likes him, maybe), he said that I can go with him, after all.

[PuhChewyChomp]

Respect the mullet!!!

[CapnJay]

i fed duck in my fuck kenny playthrough and he says "you took care of the kids you just might earn a spot on the rv yet"

not a guarantee

[YamiRaziel]

Originally Posted by CapnJay

i fed duck in my fuck kenny playthrough and he says "you took care of the kids you just might earn a spot on the rv yet"

not a guarantee

Oh, yeah. I stand corrected.
CapnJay I guess we did similar playthroughs.

[Sisterofshane]

Originally Posted by Rommel49

Except for the small detail that with Kenny's whole "fix the RV and leave" plan, is a plan to abandon the group (as stated by Lee, Mark, and others). Kenny never extends an invitation for the group to join him, just Lee (and presumably even then only when on good terms). A plan that basically entails abandoning the group, isn't really of benefit to it. Even ignoring that sticky widget, when it comes to a survival situation, the thing that benefits the group most is unity of direction and purpose, splitting that focus (e.g. whether to stay to make the place liveable or bug out) results in lower chances of success for either direction.

As I said, after Katjaa's attacked, both Larry or Mark will help Lee with the walker in the pickup, Kenny never does (despite the fact he was there to get the news that the pickup patient dies). Considering the smallest guy in the group and the gray-haired old man can get there in time to try to help Lee atleast, that doesn't leave Kenny with much excuse for not even making an apparent attempt.

Also, Katjaa herself notes that she didn't see any bites on her patient after the attack, so odds are, they would've figured it out regardless of Ben's presence.

"As far as we know", the simple fact Lee brings up Larry's experience when questioned about the camp's leadership (and the fact we've seen Lilly defer to her father) implies that it has come up.

As I pointed out, while it's true they were trying to break into the pharmacy before Lee got there, it's a bit silly to say it was just for Larry's medication. Simply because odds are everybody's going to need stuff like antibiotics eventually so they don't die as a result of everyday injuries (cut yourself with a knife, hit your thumb with a hammer? All those are now potentially fatal events).

It's also kinda silly to blame Lily or Larry for not being all that trusting of people they don't know... Hell, even in a non-apocalyptic scenario you shouldn't let strangers stay the night your house where your family sleeps, pick up hitchhikers, etc. Seriously, out of the three groups of outsiders we see her encounter, one consists of cannibals. Even then, we see that she's a lot more willing to accept outsiders as long as they show they can contribute in advance (which neither Ben nor Lee's group did), and once they were there it's not like Lilly or Larry even attempted to kick their groups out (Lee and Duck being specific exceptions, since they thought Duck was bitten and Larry knew Lee was a convicted murderer).

I've already responded about the RV and the the Walker information on the last page, but I can sum up my argument here.

I think the decision to leave with the RV stems from the fact that Kenny was trying to convince the group that they need to leave the Motor Inn, but Lily is convincing the group with her opinion that they need to stay and keep the established routine. Kenny has therefore decided that he and his family are leaving no matter what. I didn't get the impression that he wouldn't take anyone who was willing to go with him. He even tells Lee at Hershel's Farm that he appreciates having people around who can help him "knock a few heads". I think once the motor home is finished, he will take anyone who wants to go, and not bother with anyone who wants to stay. Sure, he may be "splitting" the group, but I think it is obvious that there are other people who are just as guilty of this (notably, Larry, and somewhat Lily).

Besides, we know that the group is starving to death. Is it really in the best interest of the group to stay put and "hope" that they continue to find caches of food to sustain them? I mean, if wishes were horses, beggars would ride, but that is just not reality. So then is it smart for Kenny to then lock himself onto a group of people in the face of death from lack of food? Despite being a member of this group, he still has the safety of his family to consider, and the Motor Inn just isn't cutting it. Should anybody decide that he is right, I'm sure he wouldn't leave them to starve to death with those that wish to stay.

As for Ben, the value of his information is not the information itself, but that we get it sooner, rather than later. It is crucial to how we conduct ourselves now in this post-apocalyptic world, and it is better that we have it confirmed before we find ourselves in a situation that has the potential to be deadly. Katjaa only brings up her observation to give Ben's defense a leg up, because everyone else was jumping down his throat.

Again, with the walker attack, refer to the sequence of events. Katjaa calls Lee over, her and Lee are discussing alone. Mark and Larry are at the far end of the fence, Lily is on top of the motor home, and Kenny is on the other side of the motor home by the children (I don't remember where Doug was, but that's inconsequential, because he doesn't come anyway). Then the walker grabs Katjaa, and within a few seconds Lee frees her. He then turns to call to whomever he gave the axe to - we can clearly see that NO ONE ELSE is aware of the fact that the person turned into a walker. By the time Lee alerts everyone, he is grabbed. The people with the guns, Kenny and Lily, are useless in this situation, unless they want to risk hitting Lee with their bullets. The person with the axe is then the last line of defense, and even then can't kill the walker until Lee turns him over, at the risk of also injuring Lee. Had it been Kenny with the axe, he would have been the one to kill the walker. So your notion that Kenny wouldn't do anything to help is false. He COULDN'T do anything to help. There is a huge difference.

As for the pharmacy, the narrative and the dialogue makes it clear that they were in desperate need to get Larry his medication. I will not deny that there are other benefits to having access, but the fact of the matter is that without the Nitroglycerin, Larry was going to die sooner rather than later. Lily's focus is the immediate well-being of her father, not the potential treasure trove of medicine.

And for Larry's military experience, that is only proof that Lee knows about it, not an implication that he applies it to the groups survival. Lily is the only one we know FOR CERTAIN to have used her military knowledge to do something that directly benefits the group. Lily defers to her fathers opinion, but I have seen no evidence that she also looks to him to plan and organize. Quite the opposite, as we see Larry defending his daughter as being the one to make the "hard decisions", and be the leader of the group - he's not defending the fact that he should make the decisions, but rather his daughter is more qualified and what she has decided is right.

And I don't blame them for being wary of strangers, but it almost seems to be a sort of character flaw with them. The two of them apply their mistrust over zealously, and in the wrong situations. Example one, when we first meet them at the Pharmacy. There is a group outside(smaller, without noticeable weapons), with TWO SMALL CHILDREN, under immediate threat from Walkers. Larry and Lily vote not to save them. The natural course of action would have been to save those that you could, and keep them under watch until you can determine if the adults were any threat to you (Carly does have a gun, mind you). Then Larry makes a personal judgement on Lee's character, based upon Lee's pre-apocalyptic crime of passion (a little ironic, because I can imagine Larry to be the type of man who would beat a man to death for looking at his wife), despite Lee having directly helped him get his life-saving meds.

The next time this happens, it is a someone who is brought to camp, rescued in the woods, and the other person with him is on the brink of death. I really see no threat coming from Ben, other than the obvious strain on food, but certainly there are benefits to having him there, too? Like, another person to watch the Motor Inn and hunt, right? Besides, he's barely an adult, and Lily was seriously going to leave him and his unconscious friend to the wolves, over the food that already isn't enough to feed the group.

Then two adult men, armed, approach the Motor Inn, and she just tells them to leave...what now? Having an unarmed teenager come is more threatening to two men with rifles? Now is the only time that Lily acts correctly - she is willing to cooperate with the Brothers, but it wary of the sunshine and rainbows they are spouting. She is willing to trade gas for food, but doesn't want to move to the farm just yet. Larry, on the other hand? He starts smoozing with the Mother, without even so much as a thought to ask anyone else (possibly even his daughter) what they thought about the people or the place. Lily, of course, doesn't question her father, yet has the gall to call Kenny and Lee paranoid when they suspect something is off, despite her having the same distrust of the situation.

These two are making what might seem like pragmatic decisions, but for the wrong reasons. This is why I would much rather have Kenny on my side than either one of them.

[PuhChewyChomp]

Nice wall.

[Downytax841]

Who the hell saved Larry? Once it came up as a possibility to kill him and Kenny was more than willing to do it, hell yeah I let him do it. First off Larry tried to kill me after I saved him, even though he tried to save me at the motor inn, it didn't matter because he missed with the axe so he still owed me plus interest. I think I went a little harsh in my game though, I declared myself as the leader, killed the woman in the woods, killed Danny, beat the shit out of his brother and then kicked him in the fence which fried him up, it was kind of a great scene, seeing how everyone looked on as I was becoming more vicious and seem to have frightened looks in their eyes. What to come of it, I'm not sure but it will be interesting. Kenny seems to have my back on the next episode..

[Sisterofshane]

Originally Posted by PuhChewyChomp

Nice wall.

Lol, it's a LOT of information to digest, but I like to make sure I cover my arguments logically.

[Kinky John Fowler]

Kenny can fuck right off, he seemed like a swell guy in episode 1 and I had him marked as one of the characters I would side with when the shit hit the fan. In episode 2 though I started to see a different side to Lily who had taken on a difficult role of keeping things organised and although I initialy disagreed with her ways I understood that she was doing what she thought was best for the group in spite of the reputation it had given her, Kenny on the other hand was seemingly just trying to play the power game without actually sticking any graft in.

I was starting to like Larry too as he let his guard down a few times in the episode and started to seem human, however him dying has freed up Lily and made her another outcast like the rest of us, we'll all look out for each other. Kenny, his fat mingin' wife and bent son can rot for all I care though.

[YamiRaziel]

@ Sisterofshane, I disagree with almost everything you said. I'm too lazy to respond to everything you said but I think this is very one sided way to look at it. So I will just respond to some of your statements.

So let's see... What is really Kenny doing as a leader? Besides wanting everything to be his way and always putting his family before others? Lilly rations the food and she gets the blame while Kenny... he fixes his RV so he can leave with his family. And no I don't think he will take just anyone with him.

What were Kenny's words while Lee was chopping the teachers leg? "Hurry, Lee, I'm WASTING ammo here." It's not "I'm running out of ammo" the emphasis is on "wasting". With him it's always about waste or gain.

When the walker attacked me, not only I saved his wife but he didn't even thank for it. Larry tried to save me, but Kenny didn't even react. And no, I don't think he didn't had the time or react or come.

I could forgive all that but the barn scene made me really despise him. Even if Larry was about to die, he just had no right to do it like that, especially not while we were giving him CPR. This was wrong on so many levels...
I got the impression that he did it not because Larry was dangerous (he wasn't! Even if he turned THAT fast, he would just been a heavy zombie who would need time to get off the ground. Enough time to kill him.) but because he wanted to end it faster so we can focus on his family. He completely disregarded Lilly's feelings.
And after that? Even if this is the only time Lee didn't agree with him (not everybody is so keen on killing fathers while their daughter are doing CPR, he just let's Lee die... no matter if Lee saved his kid, his wife and kept them fed. You tell me you would actually side with such a person? Seriously?

@ Downytax841 Who the hell didn't? You tell me you pulled Larry's daughter away from her father so that your cowardly "ally" Kenny can smash his head in front of her before Larry was even dead? You kept her away so that she can't do anything and you find it normal?
Maybe in the next episode there should be a scene where you get to pull Kenny away so that Lilly can smash Duck's head with something?

It should've been Lilly the one to end her zombie father (if he indeed died and reanimated) not some asshole, just because he couldn't waste time with other people's problems.

[NeonBlade]

Brilliant post Yami. I have slowly realised what kind of A-level-type jackass we are dealing here with Kenny, I got hints of his behavior in episode 1, but episode 2 really showed what's he's about. He is so dead, I assure you.

[CapnJay]

kenny is going to be the example they use of someone keeping an infected family member . cause you know that cliche is gonna play out

[marcu5]

Originally Posted by CapnJay

kenny is going to be the example they use of someone keeping an infected family member . cause you know that cliche is gonna play out

yep. im guessing it will be the wife. even though i personally want it to be duck

[Sisterofshane]

Originally Posted by YamiRaziel

@ Sisterofshane, I disagree with almost everything you said. I'm too lazy to respond to everything you said but I think this is very one sided way to look at it. So I will just respond to some of your statements.

So let's see... What is really Kenny doing as a leader? Besides wanting everything to be his way and always putting his family before others? Lilly rations the food and she gets the blame while Kenny... he fixes his RV so he can leave with his family. And no I don't think he will take just anyone with him.

What were Kenny's words while Lee was chopping the teachers leg? "Hurry, Lee, I'm WASTING ammo here." It's not "I'm running out of ammo" the emphasis is on "wasting". With him it's always about waste or gain.

When the walker attacked me, not only I saved his wife but he didn't even thank for it. Larry tried to save me, but Kenny didn't even react. And no, I don't think he didn't had the time or react or come.

I could forgive all that but the barn scene made me really despise him. Even if Larry was about to die, he just had no right to do it like that, especially not while we were giving him CPR. This was wrong on so many levels...
I got the impression that he did it not because Larry was dangerous (he wasn't! Even if he turned THAT fast, he would just been a heavy zombie who would need time to get off the ground. Enough time to kill him.) but because he wanted to end it faster so we can focus on his family. He completely disregarded Lilly's feelings.
And after that? Even if this is the only time Lee didn't agree with him (not everybody is so keen on killing fathers while their daughter are doing CPR, he just let's Lee die... no matter if Lee saved his kid, his wife and kept them fed. You tell me you would actually side with such a person? Seriously?

@ Downytax841 Who the hell didn't? You tell me you pulled Larry's daughter away from her father so that your cowardly "ally" Kenny can smash his head in front of her before Larry was even dead? You kept her away so that she can't do anything and you find it normal?
Maybe in the next episode there should be a scene where you get to pull Kenny away so that Lilly can smash Duck's head with something?

It should've been Lilly the one to end her zombie father (if he indeed died and reanimated) not some asshole, just because he couldn't waste time with other people's problems.

I really can't argue with someone who is intrinsically biased against Kenny and his behavior. (BTW aren't you the one in the thread about the Bag of Hammers that wants Kenny's family to die, as well? I would like to know what they did to you, other than being related to Kenny...)

As far as examples of Kenny's leadership, we can look to the Drug store for that. Lily steps down momentarily to take care of her Dad (as she should have, I'm not faulting her for this), and Kenny delegates jobs to the rest of the survives, and entertains the groups opinion (example, he listens to Glen's idea about finding more gas, and then agrees with him - he doesn't get butt hurt about Glen and Lee taking a beneficial initiative). He again asserts his authority when the Walker's overrun the drug store, telling three people to barricade the door, getting the children and Larry to safety in the office, and then getting his truck ready to get people evacuated. Also, he is the first one to suggest that they bunker down in the motor inn, to which Lily actually agrees. So he has good leadership skills when he is not in direct conflict with Lily and what she wants for the group.

Your perception of Kenny's character in episode 2 is just that - YOUR PERCEPTION. Picking apart one word of a sentence is not the primary indicator of someone's character. I could just as easily say that the word "wasted" is an indication of vocabulary usage of where he was raised. He never tries to save Katjaa because by the time the rest of the camp is alerted to danger, Katjaa is no longer in danger. He never thanks you because he is never given the chance - the St. John's show up to the scene almost immediately after Ben provides his information.

Besides, we don't really know for certain at what moment Larry was actually (or if he ever was) dead. You took the chance that he wasn't, but what if he was? How many more minutes do you have to wait to prove that he is? How much longer do you fiddle around with CPR, before he turns into a Walker, with both you and Lily within grabbing range? We don't know EXACTLY how the virus works, but we do know that Larry is clinically dead. Do you risk harm to yourself and others to satisfy some emotional need to save his life, when you are not sure exactly what it takes for the virus to take hold? Or do you feel that, in this certain case, that you cannot risk Larry turning just to appeal to morality?

Taking all of that into account, are you really going to judge Kenny's entire character based upon a brash decision made in an incredibly tense moment? Can you honestly guarantee that you would not make the same decision if you were placed in the exact same situation?