[SPOILERS] CARLEY [Ep 3 discussion]

[Maugly]

I do realize, but, still, major work is done when the model is first made, so I really do not think 'Make your own adventure' variant would have cost much more. And many players has already pointed out that they'd rather pay and wait more for a quality product.

[Cyreen]

Originally Posted by Maugly

And many players has already pointed out that they'd rather pay and wait more for a quality product.

Oh was that what they were screaming while waiting for episode 3? I must have blocked that out.

[Marleysativa]

Originally Posted by Maugly

Depends. Usually, they're not. But I think it'd be much simplier for 3D characters like in TWD, since with modern engines, once you made a character, you just 'pull the strings' to make them do specific pose. So it is unlikely to me that several variants of Carley death would significantly affect development cost. Probably, much less than they're going to lose now because of quitters.

I'm not really sure that you're aware of the vast differences between the two. Static text over an image is much different than a game in a 3d engine. I regret googling visual novels and looking around now. I've seen some shit, guys... I've seen some shit. I guess you could call it fap-fiction, haha.

Edit: Your avatar and sig. are awesome btw Dread.

[DreadMagus]

eeew

Originally Posted by Marleysativa

Edit: Your avatar and sig. are awesome btw Dread.

Why thank you.

[Xarne]

Originally Posted by Maugly

And many players has already pointed out that they'd rather pay and wait more for a quality product.

Everyone says that but the entire month of august was miserable in here 'waaa wheres my game, waaaa'...for a $5 episode.
And you think they would more complacent when they shell out more money and wait longer? Come on.
Especially now, the format is established- doing that would turn this place into a rancid pisshole, imo.
Hey Maug!

[Master of Aeons]

Yeah, novel games aren't a good analog for adventure games. You can create something with tons of options and branching decisions, but management is just going to tell you to streamline it and put it into a budget that's 2% of your projection.

Actually, we had someone put a choose your own adventure on this forum. All we need is an artist and programmer and we could make our own infinitely spanning game with still images.

[bakajin]

Originally Posted by Master of Aeons

This isn't meant to imply that we should change the tone until everyone is ready to be in the universe that was advertised, is it? Because I'd hate to compromise that world for those people who think this is the same zombie atmosphere as L4D2.

I don't see how you got there from what I said. Letting people get there on their own means that if they get it, they will come to appreciate Kirkman's view eventually. If TWD is not for them, it isn't. Reading the books isn't going to "educate" them on how to be a proper fan.

[bakajin]

Originally Posted by ZombieGoBoom

A thing I have been saying is: We are not reading about Lee Everette, we ARE Lee Everette. Yes this is a game based upon a comic book but we are interacting with the characters, in the middle of it all and we can become quite attached to them. When Carley dies, it becomes a little more personal than reading a comic book. I was shocked when she died and became mad after finding there was not I can do to change it but I hope she is not completely forgotten in episode 4.

I also know this is a brutal world. I figured it out when Shaun died and that bitten woman at the motel committed suicide. When Doug got pulled through the window by zombies because I picked Carley over him, seconds later Larry tried to leave me for dead. Me hacking the leg off that teacher to get him out that trap to save him from approaching zombies and watching one of his student's get pulled apart. Seeing a bandit blowing the other one away over some argument. Seeing one of the brothers killing that crazy woman because she was about to warn me about them. Finding Mark with his legs gone and later dragging himself across the floor, begging for help. Larry getting his head smashed in by Kenny. The mother getting eaten by zombie Mark. Me pounding the other brother almost to death because I didn't know I could stop at any time. And Carley was killed to let us know that life can end at any time. Uh... thanks?

Well that's the difference between Carley dying and those other characters you mentioned. her passing isn't simply about the fragility of life. Her's is about you experiencing, vicariously, losing someone you care about.

Personally I think the game failed on that score because you don't really get any bonding time with Carley/Doug even if you play Angelic-Lee. It's really sudden, you are suddenly presented with a "choice" to like her and then some minutes of gameplay later she is walker food. They had the opportunity to put off her death until Ep 4 or 5 (or later) for the real gut shot that most TWD fans (or even experienced RPG players) could see coming.

Even though this is TWD and yes DEATH is around EVERY CORNER, it's still a trope. You know when a girl tells Bond she loves him you should call the undertaker.

[Xarne]

Originally Posted by bakajin

I don't see how you got there from what I said. Letting people get there on their own means that if they get it, they will come to appreciate Kirkman's view eventually. If TWD is not for them, it isn't. Reading the books isn't going to "educate" them on how to be a proper fan.

Sorry I disagree 100%. If you've never read the comics then, yes, all the constant death and character turnover is going to be a huge surpise to you...if you havent noticed by the Carley threads and the rabid agenda to either get her back or patch her back in. People just cant accept death in VG.
Most group-based games allow you to keep teammates til the end or at the very least swap them out temporarily for another.
People dont like losing their 'friends', especially ones they have a bond with, I get that- but if you read the comics you would know this is par for course (and people wouldnt be bawling their eyes out over 1 character).
And really, the game isnt even touching the tip of the iceberg compared to the darkness in the comics.

So no, they dont have to read the comics , but it will sure help with all the 'omg omg omg she/he is dead omg Im dead inside, I cant get out of bed' and all that BS

[bakajin]

Originally Posted by Xarne

Sorry I disagree 100%. If you've never read the comics then, yes, all the constant death and character turnover is going to be a huge surpise to you...if you havent noticed by the Carley threads and the rabid agenda to either get her back or patch her back in. People just cant accept death in VG.
Most group-based games allow you to keep teammates til the end or at the very least swap them out temporarily for another.
People dont like losing their 'friends', especially ones they have a bond with, I get that- but if you read the comics you would know this is par for course (and people wouldnt be their your eyes out over 1 character).
And really, the game isnt even touching the tip of the iceberg compared to the darkness in the comics.
So no, they dont have to read the comics , but it will sure help with all the 'omg omg omg she/he is dead omg Im dead inside, I cant get out of bed' and all that BS

So it's going to help keep people from complaining about the game play if they read the comics? Hmm.

So no other form of entertainment treats the apocalypse, zombie or not, with the same gravitas as does TWD?

So no other game kills off popular characters?

So everyone reacts the same way to the same material?

[Xarne]

Originally Posted by bakajin

So it's going to help keep people from complaining about the game play if they read the comics? Hmm.

So no other form of entertainment treats the apocalypse, zombie or not, with the same gravitas as does TWD?

So no other game kills off popular characters?

So everyone reacts the same way to the same material?

Reading comprehension; not your strongest trait, is it?
As to your 1st question: Yes; it will help them understand that in a ZA people DIE. Alot. And who is here today is not guaranteed to be here tomorrow.
Now, you tell me how you derived any of your other questions out of my statement and we can continue this discussion. First, maybe get some fresh air.

[bakajin]

Originally Posted by Xarne

Reading comprehension; not your strongest trait, is it?
As to your 1st question: Yes; it will help them understand that in a ZA people DIE. Alot. And who is here today is not guaranteed to be here tomorrow.
Now, you tell me how you derived any of your other questions out of my statement and we can continue this discussion. First, maybe get some fresh air.

Oh please, don't waste my time attempting to flame. It's weak you tried to apply one of my earlier comments here.

Saying that "people die" is not exactly a trademark of TWD. Pick any of today's "edgy" serial entertainment (Sopranos, Breaking Bad), it's there. Hell, it's a cliche these days.

Now, you implied the other questions in your statement. It's implicit in the conceit that one can only understand that "people die in a ZA. ALOT" if they read TWD. I trust that most people can get that from, oh, watching the opening scene from any one of the SCREAM movies. It's in any kind of slasher/survival horror stories. You start out with a group, they get knocked off one by one until you have the surviving heroine/hero at the end. The bleak vision of TWD is not new.

Also implicit in the concept that if people read the books they will "get it" is that everyone reacts the same way to the same material. They may read the books and even suddenly realize that OMG PEOPLE DIE! That doesn't mean they won't come back and complain about Carley getting killed.

You flat out said that "group-based games allow you to keep teammates til the end or at the very least swap them out temporarily for another." If you read anything about the flap over ME3 you'd know that TWD is certainly not the only game where major characters don't make it until the end.

Nihilism and anomie are not new concepts.

Some people like happy endings. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that, annoying though it may be.

[skepticalguy90]

Originally Posted by Xarne

Reading comprehension; not your strongest trait, is it?
As to your 1st question: Yes; it will help them understand that in a ZA people DIE. Alot. And who is here today is not guaranteed to be here tomorrow.
Now, you tell me how you derived any of your other questions out of my statement and we can continue this discussion. First, maybe get some fresh air.

I think some people will respond to it differently than others. I mean, I understand that in the Zombie apocalypse are going to die, apparently in droves. But I don't think you'll see some people just come to accept it. Honestly, for me it's a turn off. When I watch a show or read a book, I invest in the characters. Watching them get killed off at a rapid/steady rate just teaches me to avoid becoming "attached" to characters and take a more apathetic approach to the whole series. In essence, it sort of ruins the entire intent of the story/game for me.

[Xarne]

Originally Posted by bakajin

Oh please, don't waste my time attempting to flame. It's weak you tried to apply one of my earlier comments here.

Saying that "people die" is not exactly a trademark of TWD. Pick any of today's "edgy" serial entertainment (Sopranos, Breaking Bad), it's there. Hell, it's a cliche these days.

Now, you implied the other questions in your statement. It's implicit in the conceit that one can only understand that "people die in a ZA. ALOT" if they read TWD. I trust that most people can get that from, oh, watching the opening scene from any one of the SCREAM movies. It's in any kind of slasher/survival horror stories. You start out with a group, they get knocked off one by one until you have the surviving heroine/hero at the end. The bleak vision of TWD is not new.

Also implicit in the concept that if people read the books they will "get it" is that everyone reacts the same way to the same material. They may read the books and even suddenly realize that OMG PEOPLE DIE! That doesn't mean they won't come back and complain about Carley getting killed.

You flat out said that "group-based games allow you to keep teammates til the end or at the very least swap them out temporarily for another." If you read anything about the flap over ME3 you'd know that TWD is certainly not the only game where major characters don't make it until the end.

Nihilism and anomie are not new concepts.

Some people like happy endings. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that, annoying though it may be.

Ok, I cant debate with people who cant process data correctly and worse, distort it or make some kinda of straw man out of it to justify a flawed view.
- I never said 'people die' was exclusive to TWD
- I never said TWD is the first game in the world where main character die
- and I dont imply stuff cause I dont want people confusing what I say
"People dont like losing their 'friends', especially ones they have a bond with, I get that"- remember this? I do, I said it.

Quite simply, you said reading the comics would not help the player appreciate the TWD world. I disagreed. You went into some kinda of defensive stance and went on about The Sopranos, Scream and various 'edgy' shows...it wasnt an attack, but you seem to have taken it as one. I didnt realize you were so sensitive, I apologize.

[Marleysativa]

Originally Posted by skepticalguy90

I think some people will respond to it differently than others. I mean, I understand that in the Zombie apocalypse are going to die, apparently in droves. But I don't think you'll see some people just come to accept it. Honestly, for me it's a turn off. When I watch a show or read a book, I invest in the characters. Watching them get killed off at a rapid/steady rate just teaches me to avoid becoming "attached" to characters and take a more apathetic approach to the whole series. In essence, it sort of ruins the entire intent of the story/game for me.

That's a shame. The comics kinda gave me that feeling for a while but I'd just end up enjoying the new characters. Issue 100 almost turned me off to the series though, as it did another poster here. Wanting to see a character avenged has kinda got me reading again though.

In this series (TWDG) I've really enjoyed almost all of the characters. Carley, Lilly, Kenny, Doug, Katjaa, and Duck all really grew on me. Above all though, I dig the interaction and the relationship between Clem and Lee. While episode 3 was brutal, that relationship will easily keep me coming back.

[skepticalguy90]

Originally Posted by Marleysativa

That's a shame. The comics kinda gave me that feeling for a while but I'd just end up enjoying the new characters. Issue 100 almost turned me off to the series though, as it did another poster here. Wanting to see a character avenged has kinda got me reading again though.

In this series (TWDG) I've really enjoyed almost all of the characters. Carley, Lilly, Kenny, Doug, Katjaa, and Duck all really grew on me. Above all though, I dig the interaction and the relationship between Clem and Lee. While episode 3 was brutal, that relationship will easily keep me coming back.

I think the biggest problem for me with the remaining two episodes, is that you know it is going to get darker. I mean, episode 3 was pretty dark, so I don't think there are many places for TT left to go besides killing Lee/Clem or traumatizing them beyond the point of no return.

[Cyreen]

I haven't read the comics, but knew what to expect. As in everything, there is an element of buyer beware.

Originally Posted by skepticalguy90

I think the biggest problem for me with the remaining two episodes, is that you know it is going to get darker.

There's a thread here somewhere making predictions for how episode 4 could be worse. I haven't and won't read it. Whatever Telltale comes up with will be horror enough; it's like a dark voyeurism that holds your interest. I wanna see where it goes.

[ZombieGoBoom]

Originally Posted by skepticalguy90

I think the biggest problem for me with the remaining two episodes, is that you know it is going to get darker. I mean, episode 3 was pretty dark, so I don't think there are many places for TT left to go besides killing Lee/Clem or traumatizing them beyond the point of no return.

All there is left for me is Clem and everyone else is barely on my radar. If the next episode is supposed to be darker and if one or two in the group are going to die, will I have time to care.

[ZacTB]

Carley was a great character, but I hope she doesn't return. I liked her since Episode 1, and she saved Clementine from a zombie by shooting her when Lee fell over because I couldn't get to her in time. I was kind of disappointed that she wasn't in Episode 2 so much but Telltale really made her at her best in the start of Episode 3. The kiss and flirting between Lee and Carley was really well done and her death was so shocking, and I think it would cheapen her character if they brought her back. The scene leading up to her death was so great though, and when she says "You think you're some tough bitch, don't you? Like nothing can hurt you, but you're just a scared little girl. Get the fuck over it. Take a page from Lee's book and try helping somebody for once"

[bakajin]

Originally Posted by Xarne

Ok, I cant debate with people who cant process data correctly and worse, distort it or make some kinda of straw man out of it to justify a flawed view.
- I never said 'people die' was exclusive to TWD
- I never said TWD is the first game in the world where main character die
- and I dont imply stuff cause I dont want people confusing what I say
"People dont like losing their 'friends', especially ones they have a bond with, I get that"- remember this? I do, I said it.

Quite simply, you said reading the comics would not help the player appreciate the TWD world. I disagreed. You went into some kinda of defensive stance and went on about The Sopranos, Scream and various 'edgy' shows...it wasnt an attack, but you seem to have taken it as one. I didnt realize you were so sensitive, I apologize.

Dude, you're the one with the reading issues (how was that not an attack when you said I had reading comprehension issues, btw?). I didn't write that you wrote "people die" was exclusive to TWD. I quoted you exactly using copy/paste. I didn't write you said that TWD "was the first game in the world." Never.

It's done then.