Thoughts about the Zombie genre

[Master of Aeons]

Huzzah, back at my computer. Now let's kick this LARPer's ass.

Originally Posted by American Foreign Policy

First off I like to say that I'm a fan of the Zombie genre and RPGs, but not JRPGs or the doom & gloom European Zombie genre.

Jeez, you like RPGs but not JRPGs? I already hate you. Maybe that's a little harsh. Let me try softening it, okay? Get off my planet. Get OFF. Sorry, I seem to be unable to acknowledge your credibility. Let's move on.

Originally Posted by American Foreign Policy

There's the obvious appeals:

Anarchy, chaos & breakdown of order.
Violence & shoot em up.
Survivor horror.

Is survival horror just a loose term here, or are you using it to allude to another genre? The zombie genre and the survival horror genre do not go hand in hand. In fact, most times they're at odds with each other. Since you made "shoot em up" a point before that, I'll take it to mean the Resident Evil 4 definition of survival horror and erase another tally from your credibility pool. You seem like the "rock and roll apocalypse" sort. I bet your d20s have REAL SHARP edges.

Originally Posted by American Foreign Policy

But then there's the genre's cliches:

Hand-waving modern military power.
Hand-waving the physics of decaying bodies.
Hand-waving the existence of militarized borders and quarantine.
Supernatural infection.
Massive inflation of the undead.
Everyone dies.

I understand a lot of people's collective gripes about the zombie apocalpyse. Mostly that it's overdone and stale. Some of these staples are cited as problematic. Why are the military always useless? Why do half the survivors do stupid things?

To me, The Walking Dead is the definitive zombie story. It gets a pass on a lot of things because I feel that it's the ultimate form of the story. Things that have been "evolved" away in modern entertainment, like runner zombies, are still played straight. The focus is boiled down to a small stage with a psychological threat over a physical threat. My favorite thing about the Walking Dead is that it's the Christian apocalypse done through an atheistic scope. If endtimes simply means that there is no longer a set rule on death and corpses roam the world eternally, but this means nothing about Jesus returning or salvation or anything supernatural, then the apocalpyse has no easy ending. You can't just get to civilization or find a cure. Mankind will grasp at straws, but will not allow themselves to rebuild what they once had.

Anyone that hates that people die in media bothers me. I feel like someone should die every season at the very least. The status quo cannot stand. You know who should really get that? Someone who plays role playing games and is used to character death and the revolving door of PC/NPCs. So Carley died. Reroll.

Originally Posted by American Foreign Policy

The power-gaming stat fiddler in me is bugged by the hand-waving of reality, but it's not a big bother.

Show me the die roll that killed Carley! If it happened behind the screen, it doesn't count! It doesn't count! I'm taking my Mountain Dew back home with me!

Originally Posted by American Foreign Policy

I can stand most the the cliches but the RPG enthusiast in me can't get around the last one; everybody dies. It's the same problem I had with the book series, if the supporting characters keep getting killed off and replaced then it's hard to get invested especially if the main character is just a sock puppet for the player. (yes yes not everyone dies in the book but I hated the frequency of character turnovers)

This is the part I really can't get around. Lee is not a sock puppet for the player. Link is a sock puppet. Cloud is a sock puppet. Commander Shepard is a sock puppet. "Sock Puppet" to me, implies that the model is nothing but a mouthpiece for your own voice to fill. For that, they have to have a bland personality and no strong character traits to latch onto. Lee is not that. Lee is a surprisingly defined character for this style of gameplay. We know a lot about him. Shockingly, we know he's a killer and how he feels about a lot. Someone we can dictate their opinions and choices fully is a blank slate. If we could choose to kill Clem and rob Hershel, then Lee would be a sock puppet. Instead, Lee chooses for us that we like Clem. He states that he's in Hershel's debt.

Originally Posted by American Foreign Policy

I don't expect it to change since it's a bad precedent to cave to fan pressure post-release, I guess I was just in for another type of RPG.

The game's been fully written and nothing's getting changed. (BioWare are sellout wusses.) This isn't an RPG, it's an Adventure Game. If you can't level up, gain abilities or change your character's name: it's not an RPG.

In closing, I don't like your stance on the zombie genre or RPGs. No hard feelings, but I think you'd be better off with a more fantastic take that you could roll some dice to.

[Xarne]

Originally Posted by Rock114

I've heard that one of the limiting factors on human strength is pain, and since walkers (presumably) feel no pain than it is feasible that they could be stronger than ordinary humans, no? And remember that in Ep2 Mark said that in the opening days it spread quickly, as in all over the country. I'm fairly certain that if that were the case the military wouldn't stand much of a chance. All bases would be under attack at once, and not a single soldier would know how to bring down a walker. Sure, they'll probably find out that head shots do the trick but they have no idea that the bites kill, and after death, no matter how you die, you'll reanimate if your brain is intact. Bases that held out against a seige could fall from the inside when dead comrades rise and nobody knows what's going on.

The virus spread quickly, too quickly for the military to effectively combat or contain is what it seems like happened. I kind of agree with you about the whole "everyone dying" aspect, but in reality we'll all die from old age anyway, even though "old age" is likely to be somewhere around 50-60 with walkers everyone, if that. As for borders and quarantine, who are we to say that the entirety of the world has fallen? We actually have no idea about the situation outside of the United States, or even within since we'll never be going further west than Georgia. While the situation seems bleak, and saying that rest of the world is in the same state is likely an accurate conclusion, we'll never truly know. For all we do truly know Canada and Mexico could be high-fiving each other for successfully containing the outbreak inside America, and saving the rest of the world.

And, I don't get what you mean by zombie inflation. Could you please explain that?

two things
I think the pain/strength relationship you're talking about is when endurance lowers and lactic acid starts flooding your muscles as a 'stop mechanism' that we know as fatigue. It wouldnt make them physically stronger but it would allow them to perform basic motor skills for hours on end

I thought about the isolation; since all communication is cut it could very well be that this is only in a certain country...but the dead are buried everywhere and apparently what activated them here most likely did it globally

[Master of Aeons]

I think that zombies are stronger than people because they can use their limbs without thought of injury or typical safeguards. Though factoring the difference in strength between unlimited muscle power and adrenaline assisted power is debatable.

For me, I like the idea that if a zombie grabs you, you aren't getting away.

[Xarne]

thats mental strength to overcome pain; that part of their brain has shut down so I suppose they have that going for them; but I wouldnt call it a bonus for them cause they dont realize it, they are just reaching for stuff much like a baby would

I see people pull away from walkers all the time in the movies/comics

[DreadMagus]

Maybe the walkers get the upper hand because of leverage or a panicky victim?

I doubt it's all brute force.

[Rock114]

Originally Posted by Xarne

two things
I think the pain/strength relationship you're talking about is when endurance lowers and lactic acid starts flooding your muscles as a 'stop mechanism' that we know as fatigue. It wouldnt make them physically stronger but it would allow them to perform basic motor skills for hours on end

I thought about the isolation; since all communication is cut it could very well be that this is only in a certain country...but the dead are buried everywhere and apparently what activated them here most likely did it globally

Thanks for clearing up the strength thing, it was just something I heard a long time ago. And I'm fairly certain that it's only the recent dead returning, like someone who died last week. But I guess that other countries have plenty of people who died within the last week too, so it would make sense for the rest of the world to be overrun.

[Xarne]

I would say it's just the pure shock of seeing the dead walking that freezes people in their tracks, ya. As you notice, they can always be outrun. Up to this point in the comics, 2+ yrs walkers are common place and dealt with in a very la-dee-da fashion. No fear, no yelling, they just size up the group split them and start whacking em down.

[American Foreign Policy]

Originally Posted by Awesoke

You should read World War Z.

I did, and as a military enthusiasts I can tell you the US army was incredibly incompetent.

[Cyreen]

Originally Posted by American Foreign Policy

I did, and as a military enthusiasts I can tell you the US army was incredibly incompetent.

Yep, and they plausibly covered why in the book.

[American Foreign Policy]

Originally Posted by Master of Aeons

Huzzah, back at my computer. Now let's kick this LARPer's ass.

Jeez, you like RPGs but not JRPGs? I already hate you. Maybe that's a little harsh. Let me try softening it, okay? Get off my planet. Get OFF. Sorry, I seem to be unable to acknowledge your credibility. Let's move on.

If you don't intend to discuss it, don't bring it up.

Originally Posted by Master of Aeons

Is survival horror just a loose term here, or are you using it to allude to another genre? The zombie genre and the survival horror genre do not go hand in hand. In fact, most times they're at odds with each other. Since you made "shoot em up" a point before that, I'll take it to mean the Resident Evil 4 definition of survival horror and erase another tally from your credibility pool. You seem like the "rock and roll apocalypse" sort. I bet your d20s have REAL SHARP edges.

I'm not sure where you get the D&D from, I like being pragmatic and methodical, I can't stand contradictions since they are signs of an incomplete scenario. Also should I hazard a guess to your personality?

Originally Posted by Master of Aeons

Anyone that hates that people die in media bothers me. I feel like someone should die every season at the very least. The status quo cannot stand. You know who should really get that? Someone who plays role playing games and is used to character death and the revolving door of PC/NPCs. So Carley died. Reroll.

Show me the die roll that killed Carley! If it happened behind the screen, it doesn't count! It doesn't count! I'm taking my Mountain Dew back home with me!

Did I complain about the technicality and plot in the same point? I complained about the team's excessive turnover in the game, you seemed to have somehow merged that with my criticism on the genre's general plausibility .

Originally Posted by Master of Aeons

The game's been fully written and nothing's getting changed. (BioWare are sellout wusses.) This isn't an RPG, it's an Adventure Game. If you can't level up, gain abilities or change your character's name: it's not an RPG.

I didn't ask for stats or so, I said I liked things similar to RPGs and Stat peddling, not that I wanted them in game. I suppose I would have been just fine with "I didn't like this point" but I suppose elaborating on my opinions with "I didn't like this point because I prefer this" opens me up to more personal attacks.

[crash665]

About the beginning of the ZA.....

Think about this: In this world it didn't just start in Atlanta and spread to other cities, states, countries, etc. (Remember, it's not that all of a sudden zombies appear everywhere. One person who dies comes back to life. Oh, joy! Aunt Ethel has rejoined us! The Lord has sent her back to us! Hey! Why is Aunt Ethel eating Cousin Jimmy? Why is Jimmy eating that police officer who is trying to restrain him? Why is that police office not going down when his partner is unloading a revolver into him? Why is that police office chewing on my leg? This happens in every city on the globe at roughly the same time. An isolated incident here and there. Then more. And more. And more. Until a turd is thrown into a fan somewhere and LOOK OUT!) It would have to be something that would begin happening at roughly the same time in most parts of the world. If it were just in one area, I have no doubt that the govt - ours or anyone else's - would have no problem in "containing" the outbreak. Something triggers this apocalypse, and it happens at the same time all over the world. In the US, our military is spread out all over the damn planet. Bring 'em home? Okay. Gonna take some time. Reserves? Okay - the ones not in the Middle East right now - they're at home with their families ---- watching their family members and neighbors come back from the dead. Are you going to leave your family that is under attack to go help another family in another city? I'm not. Most of you wouldn't either. Damn your orders.

So, what is the cause of this epidemic? Because it happens everywhere at once, it must be something of either a cosmic nature or some sort of evolutionary step gone wrong in our DNA. What triggers it? Who knows? That's the point. Any writer or creator in their right mind would never tell you exactly how it happened. The fear of the unknown is the greatest fear. Why are the dead being reanimated and why do they want to eat us? Military? Space? Science? God? We'll never know. WHY??????

In the original Night of the Living Dead, which Kirkman has said he based his world on Romero's world, there is a news broadcast of a space satellite with a decaying orbit (paraphrasing here) and coming back down to Earth. There is the hint that maybe radiation or something from space caused this, which if you look at the time it was made - late 60's - that makes sense.

As far as the zombies being a self-solving problem, well, they kind of are. Except that everyone else who dies comes back. We keep making more people - Lori and Maggie - (oops!) and when they die, they come back.

[WD40]

I understand that the military is supposed to be weakened by the sudden onset of such a pandemic, but I highly doubt that even with how the apocalypse works in TWD that an army in a highly developed country would fall flat against such a crisis. Take into account several factors, such as armored vehicles - impervious to any walker attack, air support - impervious to walker attack AND capable of dishing out a lot of damage to a force that can do nothing against it, and the fact that gun ownership in the US is crazy high, and if needed, which it no doubt would be, the US could form citizen's militias, to bolster their normal army force.

Also, a point I would need to know would be how decomposition affects the walkers. Are they actually dead? Or are they still living, but now 'zombies', and merely suffering from flesh necrosis, which would lead them to their appearance.

In either case, how would any walkers fair in extreme cold, which does happen to hit a good portion of the US and a lot of Canada during the winter months. When a walker is left in frigid cold weather for the countless days it would be outdoors, it would surely end up freezing, which would not 'preserve' it by any means. It would lead it the destruction of cells, which would eventually lead to those walkers not being able to move, rendering them useless.

I could go on with how any sort of zombie-type apocalypse wouldn't happen, but I do like the genre, and one must have a suspension of disbelief when they go into most any fiction.

[Xarne]

man all these paragraphs, whats going on in here?

[Master of Aeons]

Originally Posted by American Foreign Policy

If you don't intend to discuss it, don't bring it up.

Hey, you brought it up and didn't talk about it. You can't fault me for it any more than you should yourself.

Originally Posted by American Foreign Policy

I'm not sure where you get the D&D from, I like being pragmatic and methodical, I can't stand contradictions since they are signs of an incomplete scenario. Also should I hazard a guess to your personality?

I don't get what you're talking about. The summary of what I said was about survival horror and the safe assumption that "shoot em up" + "survival horror" pegs you as the sort of person who prefers Resident Evil 4 to 1. There's nothing wrong with it. I just don't like that brand of survival horror. I'm a Silent Hill guy.

If you say role playing and "power gaming", that sounds like D&D to me. If that's wrong, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to insult you, I'm trying to understand you through few lines of telling dialogue. Hazard a guess at my personality, if you want. I'd like to hear what you come up with.

Originally Posted by American Foreign Policy

Did I complain about the technicality and plot in the same point? I complained about the team's excessive turnover in the game, you seemed to have somehow merged that with my criticism on the genre's general plausibility .

Okay, let me try this slower. I may have overestimated your ability to argue. You complained about everyone dying at once, that's all I said. Then I made a joke about how people who play role playing games want hard stats over plot devices. You haven't addressed anything I've asked: about whether you feel Walking Dead is too supernatural, your feelings on character death as part of the status quo, or other bullet points I've laid out. You put up a good topic and I felt you were capable of discussion, all you've done is lick your wounds and said you might call me something at some point.

Come on, man. There's tons to discuss and disagree on.

Originally Posted by American Foreign Policy

I didn't ask for stats or so, I said I liked things similar to RPGs and Stat peddling, not that I wanted them in game. I suppose I would have been just fine with "I didn't like this point" but I suppose elaborating on my opinions with "I didn't like this point because I prefer this" opens me up to more personal attacks.

Having an opinion is what makes you an interesting person. Try responding to my post like you have an opinion you're not afraid to have. If you can't do that, why are you on a forum?

Originally Posted by Xarne

man all these paragraphs, whats going on in here?

Well, it was going to be lively discourse, but no one met me on the field of honour.

[Master of Aeons]

Originally Posted by WD40

I understand that the military is supposed to be weakened by the sudden onset of such a pandemic, but I highly doubt that even with how the apocalypse works in TWD that an army in a highly developed country would fall flat against such a crisis. Take into account several factors, such as armored vehicles - impervious to any walker attack, air support - impervious to walker attack AND capable of dishing out a lot of damage...

See, this is what should have been said instead of "hand waving". There is always an attempt at explaining why the police and army couldn't resist the undead. Sometimes it's just "they didn't aim for the head". With automatics, it's hard to believe that this didn't happen on accident and was assumed as a rule.

In Walking Dead, there's the more plausible explanation that the military worked, it only disbanded in favor of family. It's hard to believe that every army stand against the undead would fail. If everyone just went home because the world was fucked and they didn't have a flag to believe in, that's better.

As far as the winters go, that's actually from the comic. Walkers freeze during the cold season. Then they come right back.

Originally Posted by crash665

In the original Night of the Living Dead, which Kirkman has said he based his world on Romero's world, there is a news broadcast of a space satellite with a decaying orbit (paraphrasing here) and coming back down to Earth. There is the hint that maybe radiation or something from space caused this, which if you look at the time it was made - late 60's - that makes sense.

As far as the zombies being a self-solving problem, well, they kind of are. Except that everyone else who dies comes back. We keep making more people - Lori and Maggie - (oops!) and when they die, they come back.

I think there's a letters column where Kirkman says he originally planned a space artifact as the origin. Whether or not it's in the story in any way still is impossible to theorize. And the arc "A Larger World" is about adapting to the idea that you can rebuild and live despite the zombie presence. You'll have to burn the dead and watch the elderly, but life can go on.

Then Negan.

[Xarne]

Originally Posted by Master of Aeons

Well, it was going to be lively discourse, but no one met me on the field of honour.

Well I saw a lot of handwaving of stuff at first then, paragraphs, the fall of the military then I think I nodded off...so what are we getting at in here?

[darknessofheart]

For the most part, I never really liked the zombie genre, especially in video games, because the whole concept was handled rather poorly. It seemed more about "whoa, this is awesome, killing zombies is a sport" rather than embracing the true, horrifying reality that it would be.

The Walking Dead however is really amazing because it takes us into the true reality that would be a zombie apocalypse and it's freakin horrible and tragic. It's not about killing as many zombies as you can, but rather acknowledging just who those zombies used to be; people. They could be your friends and loved ones and yet, at the end of the day, you will be forced to put them down. Everyone is a potential victim; man, woman, child, it doesn't matter and, in the end, they become something demonic.

I have friends who play a lot of cheesy zombie games and they'll joke around and say "Man, when the world ends, I hope it does so in the zombie apocalypse" I'll joke back, "You really want the world to end where all of humanity is slowly turned against each other and where your own friends and family will become unbearable savages that you will have to kill before they kill you." Then they say "Crap, I never thought of it like that".

Again, we were just joking around, but I think that sums it up pretty well. A lot zombie games really don't acknowledge that this situation would really be one of worst, if not the worst, ways for humanity to get killed off. Walking Dead brings that up full force with massive amounts of time on character development and surviving absolute hell. We hear no convoluted ideas on how the whole mess started (though I will admit that I would be fascinated to know just out of general curiosity, but I guess that is also a huge appeal of the comic and show) and it's just about the effects it has on the characters.

It's emotional, depressing, and incredibly well written. It embraces the reality that would be a Zombie Apocalypse.

[WD40]

Originally Posted by Master of Aeons

In Walking Dead, there's the more plausible explanation that the military worked, it only disbanded in favor of family. It's hard to believe that every army stand against the undead would fail. If everyone just went home because the world was fucked and they didn't have a flag to believe in, that's better.

I understand this is how the fiction is supposed to work, but if your country were in great peril, and you served in the military (and believed in it), would you really 'go home' when your country truly needed you, in a time as such?

There isn't much time between the start of the pandemic and where the apocalypse was shown in the fiction. The amount of time is a few months, if I recall, and in those mere months I strongly believe that any good army would still be standing against such a threat.

The only way I could see this as more plausible in a real world context would be if the whole world fell apart maybe a full year later, and even then, I'd assume there would be bastions of humanity that held strong against a threat as such.

Humanity, when held in the face of disaster can fall quite short. But, humanity when held in the face of adversity is a sheer force to be reckoned with. I'm entirely sure that the world would mostly come together to combat such a dire threat, a possible end to humanity's very existence. The combined might of the world's armies, and the combined intelligence of the world scientists is a force never seen, and one to be reckoned with.

On an aside, the whole 'dead coming back, regardless of how they died' thing would be picked up on pretty quick, I think, as would the 'aim for the head' deal. Army personnel would surely be given this intel in short order, by the farthest stretches of the imagination, it would be hard for people to not figure this out with a week of the core outbreak (the part that would need the army).

[WD40]

Originally Posted by Master of Aeons

As far as the winters go, that's actually from the comic. Walkers freeze during the cold season. Then they come right back.

You know that nasty thing that ruins frozen food? Freezer burn would happen to walkers too. And freezer burn isn't just something that doesn't taste good, it is cell death, a literal cold burn. They wouldn't 'unthaw' the same walker they froze as. They would be very damaged and quite possibly unable to function.

This is why I put science aside when I get into zombie media, they don't mix.

[DreadMagus]

Ah, winter, the best time to "clean house."