Point and click games now visual novels?

[kikyouchanx]

I really hate how people are calling point and click games 'visual novels'. Mainly due to The Walking Dead by Tell Tale Games..

I guess Maniac Mansion, Sam and Max, Police Quest, and every other point n click game is now a VN.

They all had cutscenes in some way or another.

[Ribs]

Thank goodness.

[Secret Fawful]

Visual novels don't typically have cutscenes.

[DAISHI]

Times change. Titles change.

[Jake]

I thought visual novels you didn't walk around and there wasn't a big inventory or whatever. The most visual novel-esque games I've played are Phoenix Wright and Hotel Dusk, though. Are those visual novels, or what? I don't really know how the classification works.

[thesporkman]

I kind of hate the term "point-and-click game." To my knowledge, that phrase has only really popped up in recent years, and it seems to be used disparagingly more often than not. Nobody ever used to call them that. They were always just "adventure games" or "graphic adventure games with point-and-click interfaces" if you meant the particular era and UI.

[Secret Fawful]

Originally Posted by Jake

I thought visual novels you didn't walk around and there wasn't a big inventory or whatever. The most visual novel-esque games I've played are Phoenix Wright and Hotel Dusk, though. Are those visual novels, or what? I don't really know how the classification works.

Those are VNs. The main thing that probably makes people compare TWD to VNs are branching paths that affect how npcs regard you and act toward you. That plus the emphasis on storytelling. But yes, the level of interaction is different.

[GaryCXJk]

I thought they were always called point & click adventure games, mostly to distinguish them from the text parser adventure games, back in ye olde days.

[Jake]

Originally Posted by GaryCXJk

I thought they were always called point & click adventure games, mostly to distinguish them from the text parser adventure games, back in ye olde days.

"Graphic Adventure Games" is what I always called them, and still do, to make sure I sound older than I should. And, yeah, so they're not confused with text adventures. I think "Point and Click Adventure Games" are a subset of Graphic Adventure Games (because there are Sierra and similar graphic adventures which aren't played with a mouse). But whatever, visual novels!

I think people call WD a visual novel because there isn't a lot of walking around, and there isn't a lot of inventory, but there is a lot of talking and there is branching. I think Walking Dead comes very much more cleanly from an adventure game heritage than a visual novel one, though. The talking and the timers and the branching aside, the way the Walking Dead's story unfolds, the way obstacles are gated and revealed, and the overall way the story breaks down, comes pretty obviously from Telltale's more SCUMM-like adventure game catalog.

[MtnPeak]

Originally Posted by Jake

I think Walking Dead comes very much more cleanly from an adventure game heritage than a visual novel one, though. The talking and the timers and the branching aside, the way the Walking Dead's story unfolds, the way obstacles are gated and revealed, and the overall way the story breaks down, comes pretty obviously from Telltale's more SCUMM-like adventure game catalog.

Actually, Telltale's new games are more like Dragon's Lair-esque interactive movies. The new Telltale games are strings of non-playable cutscenes linked together by minimal gameplay. That's really it. There is little actual "game" in these new Telltale releases. Seems like self-serving nonsense for Telltale to suggest their visual novels are in the LucasArts adventure mold. They aren't even close to being in the same league, quality-wise or design-wise.

Originally Posted by thesporkman

I kind of hate the term "point-and-click game." To my knowledge, that phrase has only really popped up in recent years, and it seems to be used disparagingly more often than not. Nobody ever used to call them that. They were always just "adventure games" or "graphic adventure games with point-and-click interfaces" if you meant the particular era and UI.

The term is absolutely used disparagingly. You're right.

I have also been disappointed and dismayed to see several people from Telltale pile on and disparage traditional adventure games with point-and-click interfaces.

[Noname215]

Heavy Rain was a visual novel.

[Laserschwert]

Originally Posted by Jake

I think people call WD a visual novel because there isn't a lot of walking [...], but there is a lot of talking

Maybe it should've been called "The Talking Dead" then?

*rimshot*

[Jake]

Originally Posted by MtnPeak

Actually, Telltale's new games are more like Dragon's Lair-esque interactive movies. The new Telltale games are strings of non-playable cutscenes linked together by minimal gameplay. That's really it. There is little actual "game" in these new Telltale releases. Seems like self-serving nonsense for Telltale to suggest their visual novels are in the LucasArts adventure mold. They aren't even close to being in the same league, quality-wise or design-wise.

I didn't say they are quality-wise or design-wise on the same level as LucasArts games, you just said I did. I was just talking about how puzzle gating and stuff worked.

I think there is a pretty intense gap between Dragon's Lair and The Walking Dead, but you obviously disagree, as you came in and dropped a nuclear bomb as your first post in the conversation. I don't expect (or want) to change your mind, as opinions are opinions. I just don't want you to think I'm making a case for something I'm not, and it feels like you put a lot of words in my mouth (and then attributed them to Telltale as a whole and not me).

[Clord]

Originally Posted by Jake

I didn't say they are quality-wise or design-wise on the same level as LucasArts games, you just said I did. I was just talking about how puzzle gating and stuff worked.

I think there is a pretty intense gap between Dragon's Lair and The Walking Dead, but you obviously disagree, as you came in and dropped a nuclear bomb as your first post in the conversation. I don't expect (or want) to change your mind, as opinions are opinions. I just don't want you to think I'm making a case for something I'm not, and it feels like you put a lot of words in my mouth (and then attributed them to Telltale as a whole and not me).

This is probably one of the reasons why DVD things where popular actor talks before the movie there is typical legal crap telling how he/she does not represent company's views or something like that.

[Jake]

Originally Posted by Clord

This is probably one of the reasons why DVD things where popular actor talks before the movie there is typical legal crap telling how he/she does not represent company's views or something like that.

Usually someone writing on a forum using "I" instead of "we" is enough, but sure, that is true.

"My views on these matters are my own and do not represent the views or policy of Telltale Games." I'm a long-time adventure game fan who now makes games at Telltale, and I really like talking about them with fans.

[Hudomonkey]

I would also put TWD in the same bracket as old Poin and Clicks at least in Genre I've seen and played interactive movies and there is a difference...

[Darth Marsden]

Originally Posted by Jake

Usually someone writing on a forum using "I" instead of "we" is enough, but sure, that is true.

"My views on these matters are my own and do not represent the views or policy of Telltale Games."

Yeah, that's kinda why us mods have to have these things in our sigs. Lame. I could totally have used the space to put another awesome quote in there.

[LuigiHann]

http://youtu.be/l_rvM6hubs8?t=2m45s Extra Credits, in one of their episodes about JRPGs vs Western RPGs, went on an enlightening tangent about the flaws in the way that game genres are defined. They tend to be focused on obvious, mechanical things (this game is in first person, this game uses a point-and-click interface, etc). I would say that the key differences between the "Visual Novel" genre and the as-yet-unnamed cinematic adventure genre that Telltale continues to flesh out are largely superficial and mechanical.

Visual Novels are called visual novels because they tell a story with a lot of text and limited graphics. The actual gameplay mechanics can vary a lot, from rhythm tapping segments to adventure-style puzzles to courtroom battles to simulated surgery. If you replace a lot of text narration in a visual novel with a lot of cutscenes, you could have a game that plays exactly the same, but it would feel different because you aren't reading, so your brain is doing different things. I wouldn't say that Telltales games "are" visual novels but I wouldn't say the comparison is insulting or even innumerate. The primary goal is clearly the same, to tell a story and make the player feel like they're involved.

[kikyouchanx]

This was around the time The Walking Dead was called Game of the Year. That's when I heard a lot of 'Walking Dead is just a VN", and many other comments.

[DAISHI]

Originally Posted by MtnPeak

Actually, Telltale's new games are more like Dragon's Lair-esque interactive movies. The new Telltale games are strings of non-playable cutscenes linked together by minimal gameplay. That's really it. There is little actual "game" in these new Telltale releases. Seems like self-serving nonsense for Telltale to suggest their visual novels are in the LucasArts adventure mold. They aren't even close to being in the same league, quality-wise or design-wise.



The term is absolutely used disparagingly. You're right.

I have also been disappointed and dismayed to see several people from Telltale pile on and disparage traditional adventure games with point-and-click interfaces.

I find it hilarious you just complained about people talking about point and click disparagingly, then used disparaging language against those classifying Walking Dead in the adventure mold.