So Mr. Whitta what do you have against "Johns"?

[thesporkman]

Even if Molly was the one who initially suggested Logan trade the insulin for sexual favors, she would have only done so out of desperation. Logan was still the one with all the power in the situation, and so by agreeing to her "proposition" he was still exploiting her. He could have just refused the sex, refused to give the insulin, and turned her sister in. He was in complete control over the situation.

[Kiel555]

Originally Posted by Cyreen

Sexual Exploitation: The participation by a person in prostitution, sexual servitude, or the production of pornographic or obscene materials as a result of being subjected to a threat, deception, coercion, abduction, force, abuse of authority, debt bondage, or fraud.

Originally Posted by slough

^^^ All of that... Seriously guys it's not that hard to understand. Consent was dubious at best there.

I don't think my views on consensual prostitution are really appropriate or needed on a forum like this, but I don't need to give them because this is very clearly not a case of it. It's pretty obvious that he pressured her into the situation to begin with, based upon her reactions.

I saw the tapes and the above is not what I observed. What I observed is a less refined economic system called the barter system. At this point in the ZA, the US $ has no value. Unfortunately, doctors still charge for their services in a ZA just like today.

Molly needed insulin. She could have bartered for it in gold, silver, canned goods, livestock, drugs, weed, cigarettes, bullets, jewelery or , being a female, sexual favors. All are valid forms of trade items in a barter system.

I can also see why Molly was so upset with Dr. Logan. They had a deal and he called it off. She sure did a number on walker Logan. I'm sure she blames him for the loss of her sister since he is the one who cancelled their deal.

Sounds like the rules of Crawford changed at some point in time during the ZA. Initially, the "less fit" were part of the community but then something happened and the "less fit" had to go away. Maybe that's what prompted Logan to call off the deal. His medicine inventory is now being tracked where maybe it was not so closely monitored in the past. I think the consequences for breaking the rules also got more severe. Like being shot.

[BlankCanvasDJ]

Originally Posted by Kiel555

I saw the tapes and the above is not what I observed. What I observed is a less refined economic system called the barter system.

You saw the last, what, thirty seconds of the situation? C'mon man, are you really not seeing why it was wrong or are you just trolling?

[NeonBlade]

I saw it as a Barter system myself, that Molly would have been desperate enough to initiate for the love of her sister. Not saying Logan isn't a douche either. I just didn't condone or condemn either party.

But I'm like a sicko on the forum...sooooooo...I dunno..

[BlankCanvasDJ]

Originally Posted by NeonBlade

I saw it as a Barter system myself, that Molly would have been desperate enough to initiate for the love of her sister. Not saying Logan isn't a douche either. I just didn't condone or condemn either party.

Ok, even if that is the case - and I sincerely doubt it, since Molly didn't exactly seem happy with the arrangement - letting somebody prostitute themselves in exchange for medicine for their sick sister is not right. Not even in a zombie apocalypse. The guy was slime.

[Kiel555]

Originally Posted by BlankCanvasDJ

You saw the last, what, thirty seconds of the situation? C'mon man, are you really not seeing why it was wrong or are you just trolling?

I hear you. I don't like seeing these kinds of things going on either. Barter is just a very basic system where violent death is avoided when two parties agree to trade something they have for something they want. If they can't reach an agreement then they walk away.

I don't see any candidates for sainthood here. Both are survivors who were able to reach an agreement. Not saying I agree or disagree. I'm not even placing it in the context of right or wrong. Just that's what these two decided was okay for a fair trade.

[cormoran]

Originally Posted by Kiel555

I hear you. I don't like seeing these kinds of things going on either. Barter is just a very basic system where violent death is avoided when two parties agree to trade something they have for something they want. If they can't reach an agreement then they walk away.

I don't see any candidates for sainthood here. Both are survivors who were able to reach an agreement. Not saying I agree or disagree. I'm not even placing it in the context of right or wrong. Just that's what these two decided was okay for a fair trade.

As evidenced by her beating the shit out of his zombie form I doubt she considered it a very fair trade.

[BlankCanvasDJ]

Exactly. You're only assuming it was a mutually agreed upon arrangement. The more likely scenario, given the way she acted, was that it was forced on her. Saying, "have sex with me or I won't give your sister the medicine she needs" is NOT a barter system.

[DreadMagus]

Barter system?

L-O-L

Prostitution is a barter system.... sex is traded for cash. sheesh....

[NeonBlade]

Seeing as more people have been exposed to the episodes, I figured it was time for a shameless bump. I love reading everyone's opinions to my madness,

[KingOfTheDead]

It was her idea she knows she wanted that old D

[Vainamoinen]

Originally Posted by NeonBlade

Since Logan could care less if Molly's sister lives or dies, the ball is in her court to make an arrangement suitable enough for him to risk parting with the medicine.

It is Molly who has something to gain, so being a resourceful woman she would tap into primal urges and use the oldest profession in the world to gain the necessities for her loved one.

In the US, the definition of rape hinges on the lack of consent of the raped person. This is not a universal definition though. Abuse of authority and coercion should well be taken into account. Molly was forced into sexual intercourse by a doctor who had insulin readily available. This wasn't barter, this wasn't prostitution, this wasn't "I take the medicine, you can have the sex". Doctor in a position of power, Molly to comply or her sister dies. It's completely irrelevant whether Molly offered this arrangement first or the Doc did. The doctor was supposed to help her sister, and I don't even have to conjure up the Hippocrates oath to conclude that he did everything but. In a corrupt and inhuman system, the doctor chose to take advantage of the situation until it got too hot for him. This was either rape on his part - or some kind of equally punishable war crime if you wish.

He gave medicine only for sex, which AT LEAST is coercion and should be punished accordingly.
If he refused the medicine, but also the sex, he still would have let her sister die and should be punished accordingly.
If he gave her the medicine without expecting SHIT in return, he would have been a good person and an actual doctor.

[Kiel555]

Originally Posted by cormoran

As evidenced by her beating the shit out of his zombie form I doubt she considered it a very fair trade.

I'm sure Molly blames Dr. Logan for the loss of her sister as well as everyone else in Crawford who followed/enforced the rules of that community. She has a lot of anger towards Crawford and many of the things they did that she did not agree with. I'm sure she would have done the same thing if the walker was Oberson rather than Logan.

Originally Posted by BlankCanvasDJ

Exactly. You're only assuming it was a mutually agreed upon arrangement. The more likely scenario, given the way she acted, was that it was forced on her. Saying, "have sex with me or I won't give your sister the medicine she needs" is NOT a barter system.

From the tapes, I only saw Molly get upset at their deal when Dr. Logan called it off. Then Molly got really upset. I did not observe Dr. Logan forcing Molly to do anything or Molly taking the medicine by force. This was a deal they had going for some time until Logan ended the trade.

[thestalkinghead]

he basically held a gun to her sisters head and said "either we have sex or i pull the trigger" not really consent if she agrees to have sex with him

[Demonseed]

Nice response Vainamoinen I agree that the doctor, if he was a true doctor, would have given her the medicine without having sex or making any other form of "deal". If she thanked him with sex afterwords fine, but to use it for medicine is flat out wrong.

I don't know if I'd call what he did rape though, rape kind of infers that the sex is forced upon an individual who does not give his/her consent. If she consented, even if she didn't want to do it, that isn't rape. It is exploitation and morally wrong but not rape.

[Red Panda]

Originally Posted by Vainamoinen

In the US, the definition of rape hinges on the lack of consent of the raped person.

That is a negative. For example, sex with a minor is rape regardless of consent.

And doing what the doctor did is a crime also. It may be civil rather than criminal, depending on the state. No doubt it's malpractice and he would lose his medical license.

US law is very complicated.

[Red Panda]

Originally Posted by Vainamoinen

In the US, the definition of rape hinges on the lack of consent of the raped person. This is not a universal definition though. Abuse of authority and coercion should well be taken into account. Molly was forced into sexual intercourse by a doctor who had insulin readily available. This wasn't barter, this wasn't prostitution, this wasn't "I take the medicine, you can have the sex". Doctor in a position of power, Molly to comply or her sister dies. It's completely irrelevant whether Molly offered this arrangement first or the Doc did. The doctor was supposed to help her sister, and I don't even have to conjure up the Hippocrates oath to conclude that he did everything but. In a corrupt and inhuman system, the doctor chose to take advantage of the situation until it got too hot for him. This was either rape on his part - or some kind of equally punishable war crime if you wish.

He gave medicine only for sex, which AT LEAST is coercion and should be punished accordingly.
If he refused the medicine, but also the sex, he still would have let her sister die and should be punished accordingly.
If he gave her the medicine without expecting SHIT in return, he would have been a good person and an actual doctor.

I think your whole argument is more about morals than what is legal or criminal. Rape is a crime and it's also immoral. Say bad things to people is immoral but that doesn't mean it's a crime. You're talking about rape in the legal and moral sense and you should really differentiate between the two.

You're presenting a false dichotomy to say he's either raping her or it's a war crime. And it's a war crime because he's raping her so I don't even get the difference.

My issue is I think you're going down a slippery slope. A woman needs money so she sleeps with a man. Does that make her a rape victim, a prostitute, or a gold digger? How do you differentiate between the three?

[Vainamoinen]

Originally Posted by Red Panda

A woman needs money so she sleeps with a man.

A patient needs medicine, so her sister sleeps with the doctor. Here's your differentiation, and a better argument for coercion really can't be made.

[Red Panda]

Originally Posted by Vainamoinen

A patient needs medicine, so her sister sleeps with the doctor. Here's your differentiation.

I think that's a red herring. The real issue is trading something essential for sex. Yes, medicine is not money but that's about where the differences end to me.

I get what you're saying, though. Unlike the other two examples I gave, the medicine is essential.

The thing is, that's the issue with a lot of prostitution. Look at Iraq. A lot of women were poverty stricken and turned to prostitution in other countries to support themselves. They had no other means. Are they being raped everyday? Sexually exploited, no doubt, but is it rape?

[Milosuperspesh]

erm if a woman wants money she should get a job or take out a loan.

if we're talking about the ZA situation, money is no longer relevant.

imo, molly could of offered other trades for the meds, but the doctor being a lonely sad loser wanted to get his end away more, thus having control over her.

in a society of the elite and set rules. i'm guessing molly had her body to give as tribute and by that i mean food/drink/other meds are tightly controlled and guarded.