What's the more human thing to do in this series?

[Freder58]

Sonny is right.

[Milosuperspesh]

thank you for your input fred

care to use a quote to be more precise ?

[Viser]

But I don't understand why you think Ben can't change. That doesn't make sense, people change all the time... especially after going through a lot, like Ben did.

[Mrcamel]

He's well intentioned there's no doubt there but I think at times he just gets too scared or lacks common sense that's hard to change but not enough to leave him to plummet to his death when he's just a kid

[Milosuperspesh]

do people change ?

did larry ?

did lilly ?

has kenny ?

has clem ?

[Viser]

Larry died and Lilly left the group at episode 3.

Kenny has definitely changed, and you realize that when Katjaa asks what happened in the meatlocker. She knows Kenny's changing and she doesn't like it.

And so has Clem, on episode 4 she starts disobbeying Lee and wanting to participate more (like going to Crawford, exploring the house, going under the door)...

Well, Clem even comments on how Ben doesn't look the same when they come back from Crawford if you save him.

But real-life people are capable of changing too, you don't really need in-game examples to know that Ben could change...

[Evinshir]

Originally Posted by Milosuperspesh

do people change ?

did larry ?

Actually he did. On a number of occasions in episode 2 he showed signs of softening to Lee if Lee showed support for Lily.

did lilly ?

Again, yes. The more Lee backs Lily, the more she is willing to trust him.

has kenny ?

Definitely! Depending on events, Kenny becomes either more trusting of Lee or becomes more self-serving.

has clem ?

Yes again. She goes from being a kid who hides and is scared to a confident child who stands up for what she believes in and the people she trusts.

Seriously? You're going to try to argue that people don't change in a story that's all about how people change when put under pressure.

The whole point of the zombie horror genre is about how exceptional circumstances can change people. How the seemingly nice teacher can become a heartless killer in the name of survival. Or how a murderer can find redemption by fighting to save the weak and protect them.

You really don't know people if you think they can't change.

[Mrcamel]

depends what you mean in terms of Larry knew that Lee was a muderer so he was naturally wary but admittedly he didn't change much. Lilly did as at the start of the game she was good friends with carley and was a calm and collected leader of the group she then loses control of the group goes through alot of stress and kills carley and also suffers her fathers death and abandons the group she formly lead or gets abadoned herself.Kenny again has he helped duck rather then save shawn at hershel's farm and with his family dead I think he replaced he's family loss with nothing he has become more selfish as a result but his motives have changed once he's safe then what? Whats he got to live for his wife and kid are dead so what's he gonna do? Clem has become a girl who used to draw ponies to an eight year old girl who shot a zombie and saved molly's life she also doesn't complain when people swear and no longer thinks as killing as bad so I would argue she has changed the most

[Milosuperspesh]

i never said people can't change i just asked for clarification, so now putting words in my mouth eh ? bad form..

if you noticed i left out some of the characters because they have also 'changed'



and i know people 'CAN' change but not everyone does. you see growth for other characters like christa and omid who new the group for less time and they learned and have settled in the simple fact is ben has not.

if he has i must of missed so lets show some proof of the almighty ben ?

[Viser]

Originally Posted by Milosuperspesh

i never said people can't change i just asked for clarification, so now putting words in my mouth eh ? bad form..

if you noticed i left out some of the characters because they have also 'changed'



and i know people 'CAN' change but not everyone does. you see growth for other characters like christa and omid who new the group for less time and they learned and have settled in the simple fact is ben has not.

if he has i must of missed so lets show some proof of the almighty ben ?

Then maybe you shouldn't have made it look like you firmly believe Ben can't change? That kinda gives off the idea that you think people can't change, sorry if I misinterpreted you, but it's not really my fault.

The experience that would be capable of changing Ben happens at the very end of the episode, we haven't had a chance to see how it really affected him. And how have Omid and Christa showed growth? The group has known them for a day or so ._.

[bdawgnit1785]

Ben became more and more useless as time went on...not a change really I guess but once he could kinda be trusted but lying repeatedly, he became a coward pretty quickly actually.

[Mrcamel]

If you want prove of Ben changing he went from a scared kid who saw his friend and teacher die and who was scared of bandits to standing up to kenny and admitting like a man it was his fault and he was sorry and vowed to help also willing to die to help the group

[Milosuperspesh]

christa didn't trust lee's way of taking care of clem she didn't like him prying in to her business she didn't like being lied too.

since lee helped save omid she's changed her mind about him and trusts lee enough to support him in his quest to save clem.

thing is i do firmly believe ben can't change but the current point on people changing is ben is the only one who won't.

Originally Posted by Mrcamel

If you want prove of Ben changing he went from a scared kid who saw his friend and teacher die and who was scared of bandits to standing up to kenny and admitting like a man it was his fault and he was sorry and vowed to help also willing to die to help the group

hmmm ben only fessed up cos he couldn't handle the guilt anymore for the second time lee warned him to keep his shit to him self, yet for the second time he didn't and he chose the worse time ever to air his dirty laundry.. so no thats more of a step back than forward. and to give up his life for everyone else ? is a cowards way out again imo.


now to throw a spanner in the works on my second play through i saved him, for the sole purpose to see if my insight in to bens mind is correct.

bring on the flames...

[Evinshir]

Originally Posted by Milosuperspesh

i never said people can't change i just asked for clarification, so now putting words in my mouth eh ? bad form..

Really? Putting words in your mouth?

Let me refresh your memory...

Originally Posted by Milosuperspesh

simple fact a leopard doesn't change it's spots..

So now you're saying he can change his spots?

and i know people 'CAN' change but not everyone does.

People can change if they choose to. Ben, by the end of Episode 4, chooses to. So basically you're saying that Ben can change. And you have zero facts to say he won't change. Just an opinion based on ... well your claim that people can't change but they can change but they can't.

Ummm... not particularly solid ground you're standing on there.

you see growth for other characters like christa and omid who new the group for less time and they learned and have settled in the simple fact is ben has not.

if he has i must of missed so lets show some proof of the almighty ben ?

It's not that you've missed it. It's that you've chosen to ignore it due to the attribution error that Ben = idiot. So you just wait for him to prove you right and point at that to say "see! Idiot!" But Ben's actions have changed over the course of the game and he has chosen to man up and change.

Furthermore, your claim that while people can change some won't is not sufficient enough reason to let him die. Which is the point of this argument. You cannot know who will choose to change and who won't. But you cannot remotely predict another person's actions enough to be able to say you are morally justified in letting them die.

Particularly when your argument is built on such shaky foundations as the above flip-flopping you've done.

I would go so far as to say that the only reason you are able to even consider sacrificing Ben is because it's a computer game and not real life. I see a lot of this bravado type "survival of the fittest" erroneous arguing from gamers. The thing is, in most people it seems to be more of a "look how hard I am, I can make the *tough* choices."

But choosing to let someone die because they are perceived as a liability is not making a tough choice. It's resorting to the easy way out to avoid the responsibility of choosing to let someone die when you could have saved them.

Ben has changed a lot since you first met him and he has never done anything to morally justify letting him fall to his death.

[Malphaxis]

argh
I know where my wife, a former school teaher, was coming from when she said "I just can't reach them"

So many keep using terms like moral, murder, right & wrong.
In a species extinction event the rules change.
You're still applying sociological perspective in a situation where it is no longer is a consideration.

how about, this is a different universe.
It only exists in 2 demensions.
In this alternate universe there are only degrees of foward, back, left & right.
You're talking about gravity in a universe where up & down do not exist.

[Evinshir]

Originally Posted by Malphaxis

argh
I know where my wife, a former school teaher, was coming from when she said "I just can't reach them"

So many keep using terms like moral, murder, right & wrong.
In a species extinction event the rules change.
You're still applying sociological perspective in a situation where it is no longer is a consideration.

how about, this is a different universe.
It only exists in 2 demensions.
In this alternate universe there are only degrees of foward, back, left & right.
You're talking about gravity in a universe where up & down do not exist.

Morality and Ethics exist to ensure the long term survival of our species. These things exist regardless of the situation, and as a matter of fact are *more* important in an extinction level event because there will always be strength in numbers. The way to ensure those numbers are willing to work together is either though tyranny - which always has a short life span - or ethical co-operation.

We see it all the time during major disasters. The people who survive are the ones who work together to help each other.

There is very little evidence to support the idea that morality is luxury. It is quite the opposite. It's what ensures our survival.

As for the second part of your post - that's purely irrelevant. Ethics and morality exist whether there's gravity, no stars, one dimension or a million. It's a poor choice of example because it has no link to what is being argued here.

Some rules are constant.

[Malphaxis]

Some rules are constant.

Sweet Jesus, NO!!
You can not fall down in a two dementional universe.

Morality and Ethics exist..

NO!!
What your sociological perspective interprets as these things is altered by the event.

okay, Im done riding this merry-go-round.
Carry on.

[HelloCthulhu]

Originally Posted by Viser

But I don't understand why you think Ben can't change. That doesn't make sense, people change all the time... especially after going through a lot, like Ben did.

People do not change as long as they have no reason to. He fucks up over and over and over and you still clean up his mistakes and protect him. The first opportunity he actually has to go out like a hero and make a sacrifice for the good of the group and you people are telling me its wrong to give him a hero's send off? Him dying for the cause would be the ultimate slate cleaner. And it was. I felt he went out with dignity and bravado.

[Evinshir]

Originally Posted by Malphaxis

Sweet Jesus, NO!!
You can not fall down in a two dementional universe.

But that has no relevance to an argument about ethics and morality. It's like trying to argue a concept like love versus hate by talking about the mechanics of a ball point pen.

Your two dimensional universe argument has not relevance to humans surviving in a zombie apocalypse. For one, in a two dimensional universe the rules of that universe have always been constant. You can't argue it's like our world turning into a two dimensional universe - because a zombie apocalypse is nothing like that at all and trying to use that as an argument against moral behaviour is is... well... absurd.

NO!!
What your sociological perspective interpets as these things is altered by the event.

Actually it's from an anthropological and psychological perspective. Combined with anecdotal evidence and study into ethics and human nature.

Your argument is flawed at the core because you are seeing a zombie apocalypse as the equivalent of the universe changing and that this will somehow fundamentally change how humans behave. However anthropology has proven that from the dawn of time humans have had concepts of morality and the benefit of banding together to protect the weak and the elderly.

Even before humanity was homo sapien sapiens - when they were still a mix of Homo Sapiens, Australopithecus and the like, they banded into communities which protected the weak and elderly and worked together to defend their communities against predators.

The whole survival of the fittest, kill the liability? Humanity as a species has gone against that goal for about 200,000 years. That's before we even developed civilisation or the written word.

So excuse me for remaining sceptical about this fantasy that suddenly a zombie outbreak is going to undo millennia of evolution and survival instinct because of some misguided notion that survival negates morality. Some people will believe that - but as a species? No. Most people will do the moral thing even in an extinction level situation.

Edit: And if you look at the stats for this game, that is the case here too. About as to be expected.

[Evinshir]

Originally Posted by HelloCthulhu

People do not change as long as they have no reason to. He fucks up over and over and over and you still clean up his mistakes and protect him. The first opportunity he actually has to go out like a hero and make a sacrifice for the good of the group and you people are telling me its wrong to give him a hero's send off? Him dying for the cause would be the ultimate slate cleaner. And it was. I felt he went out with dignity and bravado.

Except he doesn't die for the good of the group. They had already got away by that point. His death was not a hero's send off. It was him being swallowed up by his guilt.

Furthermore, he is more valuable alive and being able to continue to help people than just falling to his death.

Romanticise it all you like - but Ben's falling to his death is not heroic. It's tragic.