What's the more human thing to do in this series?

[Joshua1991]

What do you think is the more human thing to do in this series? As a person with morals etc. have you

-Killed Larry with Kenny (Ep 2)
-Sacrificed Ben (Ep 4)

done any of this in the game?

[Dreamjbk]

I killed Larry. Kenny was right Larry would kill us all

[Rock114]

Either of those choices can be argued as being morally right. I think letting Ben die was wrong, however. Personally, I think it was morally right to kill Larry and keep him from coming back, which would have resulted in the deaths of everyone in the meat locker, Kat and Duck, along with Carley/Doug and Ben. My Lee doesn't risk the lives of the entire group just for one person who, IMO, was dead anyway. That doesn't mean I liked doing it.

[Ninnuendo]

There's no justifiable reason for letting Ben die. As for Larry, how difficult would it have been to wait a few moments and then smash in Zombie Larry's head? Kenny made a choice that was not his to make.

[aperose]

If Ben winds up causing someone's death in Ep 5 AGAIN, say Clem for example, and killing him in 4 would've prevented that, would you still say it wasn't justifiable to kill him? In the same way Larry was a threat to the group (honestly, think we should've gotten rid of him and Lilly earlier) Ben is too. In the ZA you have to have people you can trust to have your back. Ben's fuckups aren't even because he dislikes you, it's because he is incompetent and nothing will fix that.

[rachellouise85]

I didn't kill either.
I don't see how can justify something, using what may or may not happen in the future.

[Malphaxis]

In a Z.A., natural selection would reassert it self. The weak, sickly those unable to adapt would be expendable for the betterment of the whole, group or tribe so to speak. Going against that would be to the detriment of the remnants of humanity as a whole. It's one of the ways I felt Crawford was doomed to failure as children would be precious and necessary to the survival of the human species.

[CeePeeBee]

I often find myself forgetting what I wanted my character to be like, and reacting in the moment, which I think uniquely sets this game apart from others. The moral ambiguity is the best thing and it's USP.

Taking the Larry and Ben things in turn;

Larry: I chose to kill him. He would turn, we would die, and I didn't know what would happen by deciding otherwise, however I knew EXACTLY what would happen if we killed him. I chose to know my path. I( was quite shocked that Lilly forgave or at least tolerated Lee/Kenny after that with such ease. Perhaps this indicates that whilst morally, killing can't be condoned, the fact the ZPoc has arrived means morals are out of the window, and only survival matters.

Ben: The guy is a complete f*&k up. He did what he thought was right with the bandits...i can deal with that. However on 3 occasions he left Clem alone on her own, despite explicit instructions to the contrary. Whilst indirectly responsible for Duck and Katjaa, none of that would have happened without many circumstances before Ben's arrival (not least the ZPoc), so I could get over that. It was the Clem issue that had me thinking. In the end I remember thinking, I might get the opportunity to utilise Ben in a tough situation later in the game, so chose to save him.

Only thing I want to say is that I noticed that some of the dialogue in Ep 4 was less deep. Answering questions positively and then negatively produced dramatic u-turns by the characters (not least when asking for help to save Clem).

Great game though...roll on Ep 5 and Season 2.

[kingnounours]

For me none of this propositions really are "human", it's more a question of wether or not doing it will give something in our survival chances.

For Larry I chose to kill him after a moment of reflexion, killing him made me guilty but we couldn't know if he would come back as a zombie or not. And it was a too big risk.
For Ben I chose to save him because even if he caused a lot of trouble indirectly there's no real reason to kill someone even if he is a really bad guy, and I think I like this character even so he is not brave.

[Evinshir]

Originally Posted by aperose

If Ben winds up causing someone's death in Ep 5 AGAIN, say Clem for example, and killing him in 4 would've prevented that, would you still say it wasn't justifiable to kill him? In the same way Larry was a threat to the group (honestly, think we should've gotten rid of him and Lilly earlier) Ben is too. In the ZA you have to have people you can trust to have your back. Ben's fuckups aren't even because he dislikes you, it's because he is incompetent and nothing will fix that.

Actually, it would still be ethically and morally wrong to let Ben die if you could save him. You can't predict the future, and Ben's screw-ups are his responsibility - not yours. You can't sacrifice a person for what they *might* do. If you follow that logic, then Clem should be sacrificed because as a child she *might* draw the zombies to you through her inexperience. It's a slippery slope trying to claim that it's justifiable to kill Ben.

Ben's fuck-ups are because the rest of the group don't pay attention to him and don't keep him in the loop.

- The Bandits fuck-up was because Lily and Kenny engendered a hostile and distrustful atmosphere at the motel - so Ben was too scared to tell anyone what he was up to.
- Carly's death was purely Lily's own paranoia brought about by Kenny's murder of her father. You can't blame Ben for something that was out of his control.
- The school attack was because nobody told Ben that the zombies had gotten that far into the building and had send him out looking for something like an axe to break down the door. How hard would it have been for Kenny to say "oh, and don't take the axe out of the door."
- Brie's death was because Kenny decided to force a vote when everyone's lives were in serious danger. Ben was stupid to tell Kenny, but he's a kid trying to deal with guilt that KENNY had been unwittingly been dumping on him.

The fact is, the more people blame Ben then the more likely he'll screw up. What Ben needs is to have someone believe in him and keep him informed rather than just boss him around. I believe he's going to step up to the plate in the final episode.

As for Larry - again, nobody knew if he would come back as a zombie or if he could be resuscitated before he turned. They should have tried to resuscitate him and been ready to kill him if he ended up turning.

[HelloCthulhu]

Originally Posted by Ninnuendo

There's no justifiable reason for letting Ben die.

How about survival instincts? If someone is constantly putting your life or the life of a loved one at risk, would you not kill to protect them? Lets give another example...a person is crying loudly in pain and he wont listen to reason...would you do whatever it took to shut him up if it would save your life?

Originally Posted by Evinshir

Ben's fuck-ups are because the rest of the group don't pay attention to him and don't keep him in the loop.

How unclear is it when you say "if anything happens to clementine while I'm gone it is your ass." And then HE LOSES HER?!

[Pellet]

Larry was dead anyways.
As soon as he grabbed his chest i knew that we were way too far from the motor inn, and way too close to these cannibals for him to come out of that locker a survivor. And two heart attacks in 2 episodes, this couldve been a theme in the next couple of episodes
Episode 3: Larry- The bandits are att........... thump.
Lee- Damnit not this again
Then in episode 4 Omid could've had a roomate

[Evinshir]

Originally Posted by HelloCthulhu

How unclear is it when you say "if anything happens to clementine while I'm gone it is your ass." And then HE LOSES HER?!

When he gets called upstairs to help a man with a broken leg and Clem had promised to stay in the house while Lee was out?

Clementine was to blame, not Ben. She chose to sneak out when she had the chance. Ben's only fault there was to trust that she'd respect Lee's wishes.

Again - Ben gets blamed for the actions of others. It's not incompetence, just another honest mistake that anyone could make. What's he supposed to do? Say no to Christa when she asks for his help because he has to sit in a room and watch a girl. Then get accused of using Clem as an excuse for not doing anything?

Beyond that - that's still no reason to let him die.

[HelloCthulhu]

Originally Posted by Evinshir

When he gets called upstairs to help a man with a broken leg and Clem had promised to stay in the house while Lee was out?

Clementine was to blame, not Ben. She chose to sneak out when she had the chance. Ben's only fault there was to trust that she'd respect Lee's wishes.

Again - Ben gets blamed for the actions of others. It's not incompetence, just another honest mistake that anyone could make. What's he supposed to do? Say no to Christa when she asks for his help because he has to sit in a room and watch a girl. Then get accused of using Clem as an excuse for not doing anything?

Beyond that - that's still no reason to let him die.

as if that is the first time he has fucked up...and I mean royally. Reallly, you are with a group of survivors and you see an axe in the door holding it closed...you pick it up? You are with a little girl and you have a gun and you leave her to the zombies? Despite being told implicitly that telling kenny would be a bad fucking idea at this time, and after he says he understands you...he does it anyway at the worst fucking time?

[Malphaxis]

Nobody told Ben not to remove the axe from the door handles holding back the herd of Zs? Really? ' 'cause he's not a child & if he so incapable of making critical observations then he's not worth having in the group or risking anyones skin for.
What value has he brought to the group? What does Ben bring to the table? I you hadnt happened along on him and his party of misfits he would have died in the forest with them. So other than a disaster looking to happen and another mouth to feed what use is he to anyones survival , keeping in mind this isnt normal modern polite society..
Its the diff between Ricks, Shanes & the Govenors style of leadership, and youll notice how Rick becomes less.his "lawful good" self as time goes on and he adapts to the world of a ZA.

[DreadMagus]

No, and no.

Though, looking back, saving Larry was impractical.

If I ran it again, I'd be first in line to give him a salt-lick transplant.

[Evinshir]

Originally Posted by Malphaxis

Nobody told Ben not to remove the axe from the door handles holding back the herd of Zs? Really? ' 'cause he's not a child & if he so incapable of making critical observations then he's not worth having in the group or risking anyones skin for.
What value has he brought to the group? What does Ben bring to the table? I you hadnt happened along on him and his party of misfits he would have died in the forest with them. So other than a disaster looking to happen and another mouth to feed what use is he to anyones survival , keeping in mind this isnt normal modern polite society..
Its the diff between Ricks, Shanes & the Govenors style of leadership, and youll notice how Rick becomes less.his "lawful good" self as time goes on and he adapts to the world of a ZA.

I feel that being in a zombie apocalypse is even more reason to value every life. Measuring people by their "value" is a sure fire way to guarantee you don't survive. The whole point we developed a modern polite society is because humanity as a species worked out early on that loners don't last long. If you devalue people, they will devalue you. Which means they are more likely to let you die. How you treat your weakest is a measure of how well you will be treated at your weakest moment.

I'd save Ben every time.

[Phoenix VII]

Ben: The kid has been a complete screw-up since Day 1. Even if he was too scared to talk to Kenny or Lilly he had no excuse to not talk to Lee and frankly, in the ZA, you shouldn't be giving away supplies, let alone medicine, without the consent of the group. Due to there being an unknown thief in the group, Lilly grew more paranoid, the bandits attack anyway while the group is unprepared after the supplies are found, Duck, Katjaa, and Carley/Doug die, Kenny loses his family, and you lose all the supplies and medicine you had to leave behind in the motel. Then Chuck dies because Ben is too much a coward to shoot a few walkers and too panicky to grab Clem's hand when he runs. Then he gets a snarky attitude for the first half of Ep. 4 even though he can't do his one job which is to keep an eye on Clem and tries to talk back when Lee gets rightfully upset after Clem shows up in the street where you're fighting Molly and again when she disappears before the boat is found. Finally, Crawford, Brie dies, and the whole group could've died if things went just a little worse all because Ben takes a hatchet that is clearly barring the only door that's between you and the walkers. Even if you don't know that there are walkers in the building, you know there are walkers outside, and you shouldn't remove what's blocking the only door between your group and the walkers without even checking with anyone else first. On the plus side, Ben's just a naive, generally good-natured, timid, dumb-as-bricks kid which unfortunately doesn't make the people that die due to him any less dead. By the end of Ep. 4 getting rid of Ben is no longer a matter of morality, IMO, it's just good sense. I'd give him to Vernon instead, if I had a choice, but I didn't.

Larry: Since I know CPR alone doesn't really work for heart attack victims now, there's only 1 valid choice, IMO, since Larry coming back as a walker is more a matter of when than if. And when Larry comes back, if the group is still in the meat-locker, Lee and Kenny alone won't be able to beat Walker Larry and it will result in everyone in that room dying.

[Milosuperspesh]

TO evin and other i saved ben group members..

What are you smokin ?

so regardless of how many times ben has caused death you'd keep him with you ?

as i pointed out in one of my threads, link here http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/...ad.php?t=37857

seriously common sense is extinct..

So saving every life no matter the pro's and cons of the choice is frankly mind boggling.

survivor a) oh look a guy with an arm trapped needs help lets save him

result of a) he dies from blood loss, turns and bites the nurse/medic,

result a2) the medic then needs help from a less qualified person

result a3) the medic suffers the same fate as result a

this cycle repeats till someone with a half a brain puts the walkers down/ leaves the camp.

thats pretty much what bens done.

larry was an asshole and was a ticking time bomb once his meds ran out.

regardless of who 'needed' ben more, ben made lee a deal to protect clem, he decided a guy with a bad leg was more important. when he's already shown how useless he is why would christa rely on him ? true it's abit messy and gory to involve clem but she'd be way more usefull.

to save everyone is noble and shows morale fibre and your humanity and the 'future generations' would be proud BUT if there's no one left to tell your story because all the stupid people killed your group..your story ends....

so i'll close this statment with two outcomes:

if ben survives and becomes a hero and doesn't cause any more death = makes dropping him stupid and makes a mockery of the character's basic premise in that he's an idiot.

if ben dies like the stupid bitch he is with more deaths caused by his naivity = i will laugh my man boobs off to the point where they reach orbit and are shot down as ufo's

[Malphaxis]

Originally Posted by Milosuperspesh

to save everyone is noble and shows morale fibre and your humanity and the 'future generations' would be proud BUT if there's no one left to tell your story because all the stupid people killed your group..your story ends....

And thats it in a nutshell.
You do have such a uniquely eloquent way of slicing through the minutia you word smith you.