Episode 5 Disappointment (vent here) **SPOILERS**

[thespanner]

Originally Posted by shedim

How about making zombie apocalypse movies/games/comics where everyone ends up dead withing the first 5 minutes/pages of the movie/game/comics, then? Why bother with a story or fleshing out characters, if they end up dying anyway?

Star Wars had happy endings even before Disney became the overlord and as far as I recall the galaxy there was actually a pretty dark and depressing place and a whole bunch of situations were pretty dire. Imagine Star Wars with Luke Skywalker dying in the end because of the mysterios Sandpeople space flu, BEN3PO getting half of the characters killed and R2D2 as the only survivor, shedding sparks because his master died and the poor robot had to put Lee Skywalker out of his misery before turns into one of the Sandpeople and starts going on a rampage. Of course there could be another scene after the credits where R2Dmentine notices 2 silhouettes turning towards her that could be either Brendarth StJohn and her pet rancor or Princess Christa and Ombacca as a cliffhanger for "The Empire strikes back". Awesome ending, right? Hey, it's grimdark future, so what did you expect, right?


Jesus Christ, who the fudge said there can't be a happy ending for one season in a zombie apocalypse game that could easily have a variety of different endings, only if your choices did really matter? That'd be something fresh and not just like the other billion generic main character dies type of endings. I just wish we had the choice, or that one of our decisions actually mattered in the end. Like chopping off your arm having Lee survive the episode. What could be wrong with that? Rick ain't dead yet, after all and he is right in the middle of a zombie apocalypse!

Welcome to The Walking Dead! No such thing as a happy ending.

[Doctanian]

Absolutely masterful series. That said, I do have a harsh review. I loved the episode, but I seriously need to point out some problems.

I have six main complaints with episode 5

1) WAY too short.
2) It felt rushed/Campman's motivations.
3) Lee's arm.
4) Lee's death/zombification.
5) The epilogue was horrible.
6) The concept of "choice".

1) Is it just me? Or is this the shortest episode? I mean, I railroaded through this in what seemed to be maybe an hour and a half? Most episodes reach over 2 hours. Episode 3 had to be the longest. Hoping for a longer experience.

2) Also the way the story wraps up was rushed. I mean, Campman's motivation made little sense to me. Sure, he says you stealing the stuff led to his family's demise, but was that really enough for him to go through with his Rube Goldberg idea? And how was he able to track them down in the city, Clem didn't have the radio with her. Why the fuck wasn't the Marsh Hotel filled with zombies? And what the fuck was Campman going to do if Lee came with everyone? How could he have possibly beaten Lee, Kenny, Christa, Omid, and Ben? Especially if they were armed? Waaaaaay too many plot holes. Very, very sloppy writing. I would've gladly waited another month or two for a better written story.

3) I didn't cut my arm off, because in the back of my mind I knew it was absolutely pointless. And low and behold, it was. My friend messages me saying he got Lee's arm amputated and he STILL dies. Thanks for being complete dicks with that one, TellTale, teasing a possible determinant death. Also, Kenny and the others seemed to know cutting it off might help. My question is, why the fuck didn't they suggest that when I first showed them the bite?

4) I was expecting Lee to die. But the way people were hyping the ending up made me think Clem was going to die too. Not that I wanted that. It's the last thing I wanted. It's just people were saying this was the most heartwrenching thing they've ever seen. So I'm like "Clem must be the one that dies". I mean, everyone loves Clem and that's the only death I expect people to have such a strong reaction too. I love Lee, but still. I guess the fact that I expected Lee to die took a bit of the emotional sting away. I got so attached to him and Clem. I'm glad to see Clem alive, but knowing they'll never be together again makes me much more angry than it does sad.

5) The epilogue is complete trash. I hate that TellTale keeps trying to be ambiguous. First Lilly. Then Molly. Then Vernon and his piece of shit group. Then Kenny's "death". And then Clementine. Is it too much to give the player some closure? I mean, it is a season, but from what TellTale was saying after the game's success, I don't think they had a season 2 planned. So was this cliffhanger ending supposed to happen or was it added in at the last minute to hook people for season 2?

6) Choice never mattered with this game. You can feed me that "the theme is helplessness/hopelessness" stuff, but that's some bullshit. It was cost effective and time saving. Period. I was really expecting them to come through and give us multiple endings for this one episode. I could tolerate things like Carley dying and Ben's lackluster death if you save him, as long as they gave me the option to end the game in a couple different ways, but no. It's like being able to choose different types of fast food. You may get a different taste, but it all ends in a heart attack regardless.

I know I'm coming down hard on a downloadable game that probably didn't have much funding and resources behind it, but TellTale should've never suggested that your choices actually matter and therefore have a profound effect on the story when they really didn't mean anything. Doug, Larry, Carley, Ben, Duck, Katjaa, Chuck, and Lee are doomed no matter WHAT you do. Molly, Lilly, Christa, Omid, Kenny, and Clementine's fates are unknown thanks to a literary cop-out (ambiguous endings).

They should've just said it's a story and you're along for the ride, but instead it gives the phony illusion of choice. We can argue all day whether it's intentional or not.

I really hope season 2 is much, much more ambitious and far-reaching. Hope Clem, Lilly, and Christa and Omid come back. Kenny, if he's alive too.

That said, I still adore the game. It's going down in my top 20 favorite video games of all time.

[Ja1862]

Originally Posted by ieatbrains

2nd play. I just laugh arm or no arm, Lee still uses one arm throughout the whole episode. This episode was a let down for me.

looool yep. Was a poor episode, I didn't pay for any episodes after the first, played them at my friends. I had a feeling the choices would be paper-thin.

[ieatbrains]

Originally Posted by Doctanian

Absolutely masterful series. That said, I do have a harsh review. I loved the episode, but I seriously need to point out some problems.

I have six main complaints with episode 5

1) WAY too short.
2) It felt rushed/Campman's motivations.
3) Lee's arm.
4) Lee's death/zombification.
5) The epilogue was horrible.
6) The concept of "choice".

1) Is it just me? Or is this the shortest episode? I mean, I railroaded through this in what seemed to be maybe an hour and a half? Most episodes reach over 2 hours. Episode 3 had to be the longest. Hoping for a longer experience.


2) Also the way the story wraps up was rushed. I mean, Campman's motivation made little sense to me. Sure, he says you stealing the stuff led to his family's demise, but was that really enough for him to go through with his Rube Goldberg idea? And how was he able to track them down in the city, Clem didn't have the radio with her. Why the fuck wasn't the Marsh Hotel filled with zombies? And what the fuck was Campman going to do if Lee came with everyone? How could he have possibly beaten Lee, Kenny, Christa, Omid, and Ben? Especially if they were armed? Waaaaaay too many plot holes. Very, very sloppy writing. I would've gladly waited another month or two for a better written story.

3) I didn't cut my arm off, because in the back of my mind I knew it was absolutely pointless. And low and behold, it was. My friend messages me saying he got Lee's arm amputated and he STILL dies. Thanks for being complete dicks with that one, TellTale, teasing a possible determinant death. Also, Kenny and the others seemed to know cutting it off might help. My question is, why the fuck didn't they suggest that when I first showed them the bite?

4) I was expecting Lee to die. But the way people were hyping the ending up made me think Clem was going to die too. Not that I wanted that. It's the last thing I wanted. It's just people were saying this was the most heartwrenching thing they've ever seen. So I'm like "Clem must be the one that dies". I mean, everyone loves Clem and that's the only death I expect people to have such a strong reaction too. I love Lee, but still. I guess the fact that I expected Lee to die took a bit of the emotional sting away. I got so attached to him and Clem. I'm glad to see Clem alive, but knowing they'll never be together again makes me much more angry than it does sad.

5) The epilogue is complete trash. I hate that TellTale keeps trying to be ambiguous. First Lilly. Then Molly. Then Vernon and his piece of shit group. Then Kenny's "death". And then Clementine. Is it too much to give the player some closure? I mean, it is a season, but from what TellTale was saying after the game's success, I don't think they had a season 2 planned. So was this cliffhanger ending supposed to happen or was it added in at the last minute to hook people for season 2?

6) Choice never mattered with this game. You can feed me that "the theme is helplessness/hopelessness" stuff, but that's some bullshit. It was cost effective and time saving. Period. I was really expecting them to come through and give us multiple endings for this one episode. I could tolerate things like Carley dying and Ben's lackluster death if you save him, as long as they gave me the option to end the game in a couple different ways, but no. It's like being able to choose different types of fast food. You may get a different taste, but it all ends in a heart attack regardless.

I know I'm coming down hard on a downloadable game that probably didn't have much funding and resources behind it, but TellTale should've never suggested that your choices actually matter and therefore have a profound effect on the story when they really didn't mean anything. Doug, Larry, Carley, Ben, Duck, Katjaa, Chuck, and Lee are doomed no matter WHAT you do. Molly, Lilly, Christa, Omid, Kenny, and Clementine's fates are unknown thanks to a literary cop-out (ambiguous endings).

They should've just said it's a story and you're along for the ride, but instead it gives the phony illusion of choice. We can argue all day whether it's intentional or not.

I really hope season 2 is much, much more ambitious and far-reaching. Hope Clem, Lilly, and Christa and Omid come back. Kenny, if he's alive too.

That said, I still adore the game. It's going down in my top 20 favorite video games of all time.

Very well said. "Choices are full of crap"

[cojemo]

UGH... It makes me soooooooooo frustrated seing people say choices don't matter. They do. Like I always say, you can have a set destination and a few points to pass, but how you get there is your choice. In my game, Kenny died protecting Ben because he felt he owed ben that. That didn't happen in everyones. they could have hated Kenny and not felt for him.

[Evinshir]

Originally Posted by cojemo

UGH... It makes me soooooooooo frustrated seing people say choices don't matter. They do. Like I always say, you can have a set destination and a few points to pass, but how you get there is your choice. In my game, Kenny died protecting Ben because he felt he owed ben that. That didn't happen in everyones. they could have hated Kenny and not felt for him.

But the difference is cosmetic. Because the alternative is Kenny dies saving Christa. Regardless of your decisions, Kenny dies. At the exact same point in the episode.

Also it all comes to the same outcome - Clem looking for Christa and Omid.

The changes really aren't as big as you think they are. You still lose the same people at the same points. Any "choices" are ultimately surface only.

Hence the disappointment.

Edit: To put it another way, the game ends up only paying lip service to your choices. The Stranger still blames Lee, nobody who dies can actually be saved by a different choice or string of choices. It's all smoke and mirrors. The story is exactly the same by the time it reaches it's conclusion. A story is not just the journey, but where that journey takes the characters.

[ColtPeacemaker00]

Originally Posted by Chrizza

I absolutely loved the first four and am heavily invested in Clementine and Lee, but this sucked.

- No tension at all. Very bleak throughout the whole episode.

- You would expect that the faith of Clementine's parents would be something bigger, but it's only addressed for a second.

- Clementine dragging a grown man to safety, really?

- I'm not even sure if the long conversation with that guy was meant to be creepy or something, but I didn't feel anything. Also seems like a very far-fetched way to tie the car looting to something and was very anti-climatic to wrap up the whole ''Clementine is gone'' storyline.

- Took the covering yourself in guts from the series.

- Took the arm cutting from the comics.

- Shortest episode of them all, which is weird for a finale.

- All the climbing bits were very lame and boring.

- Kenny disappearing in the lamest fashion, the result of dropping something in a dark hole, zzz.

Anyway, I think I've made my point.

I agree as a finale to what has been a great season, this was an absolute failure, and my least favorite episode. In comparing with the others I found it to be, imo, lackluster, rushed, nonsensical, and boring. Instead of focusing most of their energy in setting the stage for season 2, they should have worked at making this episode the crowning glory to what has been a very entertaining first season. I was hoping for the same emotional ties I felt for the previous episodes and all I felt at the end of 5 was....ehhh!

[Doctanian]

Originally Posted by cojemo

UGH... It makes me soooooooooo frustrated seing people say choices don't matter. They do. Like I always say, you can have a set destination and a few points to pass, but how you get there is your choice. In my game, Kenny died protecting Ben because he felt he owed ben that. That didn't happen in everyones. they could have hated Kenny and not felt for him.

You don't get it.

The game ends with Clementine looking for Christa and Omid.

No matter what you do. It ends that way. Like another poster said, characters are doomed no matter what. Kenny dies at the same point no matter what you do, no matter who he's saving. Lee's life isn't extended in the slightest whether you cut his arm off or not. He dies at the same point in the game. So your choices offer nothing more than different dialogue options and different cinematic sequences, but it's still the exact same outcome.

It's like you taking the elevator and me taking the stairs. We still end up on the same floor.

Lazy writing. I can't stand it.

[BlankCanvasDJ]

Originally Posted by Evinshir

But the difference is cosmetic. Because the alternative is Kenny dies saving Christa. Regardless of your decisions, Kenny dies. At the exact same point in the episode.

No, the difference is nuance. Telltale has said from the start that your choices would not drastically effect the outcome of the story, they effect the texture of the story, they effect how people behave and how they respond to you and their motivations for the things they do.

Originally Posted by Doctanian

It's like you taking the elevator and me taking the stairs. We still end up on the same floor.

Lazy writing. I can't stand it.

That's not lazy writing, that's two completely different ways to get to the same point. It's not a choose-your-own-adventure book. The ending was set in stone from the beginning.

[cojemo]

Originally Posted by Evinshir

But the difference is cosmetic. Because the alternative is Kenny dies saving Christa. Regardless of your decisions, Kenny dies. At the exact same point in the episode.

Also it all comes to the same outcome - Clem looking for Christa and Omid.

The changes really aren't as big as you think they are. You still lose the same people at the same points. Any "choices" are ultimately surface only.

Hence the disappointment.

Edit: To put it another way, the game ends up only paying lip service to your choices. The Stranger still blames Lee, nobody who dies can actually be saved by a different choice or string of choices. It's all smoke and mirrors. The story is exactly the same by the time it reaches it's conclusion. A story is not just the journey, but where that journey takes the characters.

I see what you are saying,but what you do changes how it happens. Kenny pushed me out when I wanted to help him with Ben. Well, its all how you look at it. Opinions are great.

[cojemo]

Originally Posted by Doctanian

You don't get it.

The game ends with Clementine looking for Christa and Omid.

No matter what you do. It ends that way. Like another poster said, characters are doomed no matter what. Kenny dies at the same point no matter what you do, no matter who he's saving. Lee's life isn't extended in the slightest whether you cut his arm off or not. He dies at the same point in the game. So your choices offer nothing more than different dialogue options and different cinematic sequences, but it's still the exact same outcome.

It's like you taking the elevator and me taking the stairs. We still end up on the same floor.

Lazy writing. I can't stand it.

Yeah, but I could meet a cool person on the elevator or you could fall down the stairs. What you want is choices that effect the end, which is VERY unrealistic.

[Saoralba131]

Originally Posted by shedim

Aww come on, fudge you telltale! You could at least have let Lee survive if we chose to chop off the arm. Another choice that didn't matter at all in this game full of pointless choices.

The railroading dead all the way, huh?

You are &/%$/&$, seriously!

If you chop off the arm though you stop him from passing out as much,and I think you also slow the infection down a tiny bit.

[Doctanian]

Originally Posted by BlankCanvasDJ

That's not lazy writing, that's two completely different ways to get to the same point. It's not a choose-your-own-adventure book. The ending was set in stone from the beginning.

Must I point out the ludicrous amount of plotholes and sloppy writing in episode 5? I'll could give the single ending a pass if the wrap up wasn't so infuriating.

And it's not just the ending. It's how you get there too. Nothing we do matters. Literally. It all ends the same. Every character that dies will die no matter what.

[Alpr]

My beef with the ending:

-Epilogue sucked.
-Choices didn't matter.

I was ok with lee dying, but I was basically left hanging with the girl wandering in the middle of nowhere when I told her to go to the train, and the fact that characters die no matter what you do. If one dies, another will die in their place later. No getting around that.

I still love the game, but the ending was very disappointing for me.

[Doctanian]

Originally Posted by cojemo

Yeah, but I could meet a cool person on the elevator or you could fall down the stairs. What you want is choices that effect the end, which is VERY unrealistic.

That's hardly unrealistic.

[Discalceate]

Originally Posted by MaroubraDave

Telltale,
Firstly i would like to say great game and a fantastic concept. However the ending i would say is not so great. While it is very well made and certainly tugs at your heart strings, I didn't play the game and wait for the ending only to find out i die anyway... Now i know people may argue that you didn't see lee actually turn so maybe he will be ok, but the fact you left it this way is really a let down to the series. I was really looking forward to the last episode but in all honesty it just brought me down and i kinda wish i stopped playing at episode 4. There should be an alternative ending where you can at least live... Just my opinion.

You are wrong.

[Evinshir]

Originally Posted by BlankCanvasDJ

No, the difference is nuance. Telltale has said from the start that your choices would not drastically effect the outcome of the story, they effect the texture of the story, they effect how people behave and how they respond to you and their motivations for the things they do.

It's really not nuance. You still argue with Kenny - even if he's your bro. You still get blamed for the car theft. You still get called a murderer. The fight at the roadside where Doug/Carly gets shot plays out exactly the same regardless of what you said or who you talked to.

The nods to your choices really don't impact the other character's motivations. Kenny acts morose no matter what you say. Christa and Omid end up wanting to look after Clem. Ben still blames himself and gives up in episode 4.

The nuances end up meaning nothing and gives the whole story a fatalistic air that people are useless no matter what. But the comics actually have more of a message than that.

So trying to claim nuance doesn't really hold when the characters still do the same things in the end.

[Doctanian]

Originally Posted by Evinshir

It's really not nuance. You still argue with Kenny - even if he's your bro. You still get blamed for the car theft. You still get called a murderer. The fight at the roadside where Doug/Carly gets shot plays out exactly the same regardless of what you said or who you talked to.

The nods to your choices really don't impact the other character's motivations. Kenny acts morose no matter what you say. Christa and Omid end up wanting to look after Clem. Ben still blames himself and gives up in episode 4.

The nuances end up meaning nothing and gives the whole story a fatalistic air that people are useless no matter what. But the comics actually have more of a message than that.

So trying to claim nuance doesn't really hold when the characters still do the same things in the end.

^^^

This.

[Saoralba131]

Don't they have to make the ending & epilogue basically the same so when season 2 is released everyone will start at the same point?

[funyahns]

So much to cover about this. I enjoyed the episode and the season only a few minor complaints. I had the arm taken off, thought it was the best chance at survival. I figured it was not the bite that was going to kill me, but blood loss and exhaustion that did Lee in at the end. I think the epilogue was not needed because Lee was dead or gone whatever. I thought the end of game was perfect. Lee stormed in and did his best and got her out, that was the goal throughout.

Now some complain about not surviving. How were you supposed to survive? You were bitten in the 4th episode you knew the clock was winding from then on out. Maybe if you cut your arm off and found somewhere safe to heal up over a few days with medicine you could have survived.

Why would you think you failed Clem because she is on her own afterwards? She survived a long time with Lee, and she has a shot. If you think giving up and letting her die is a better choice than a chance, then you miss the point of being alive. It was as happy as an ending as you could really expect.

Did you expect Lee to chop enough zombies in the Gauntlet to get a kill streak and get to call in tactical support or something?