Crawford Vs Ben (or Survival Vs Humanity)

[Ninnuendo]

I don't want to write too much in this topic for fear of influencing the poll but I'm interested looking at the Ben question through the prism of Crawford Survivalist Philosophy.

Ben
He's a young kid, he's an idiot, he's put you in danger multiple times but he's not bad, he's well meaning, he has the potential to be useful and will keep trying to be.
Now Ben has split this forum into 2 camps.

Those who would drop him because he's a threat or because he already screwed up & those who would save him out of compassion or his potential use. This particular issue is very relevant to the supporters and opponents of the way Crawford is run.

What I want to know is this

Did you support or agree with Crawfords policy of removing potential threats?
&
Did you drop Ben?

I'd really like forum answers to this and explanations, don't just vote and leave.

Poll is coming in a moment

[skepticalguy90]

I don't really agree with Crawford's policy. I did drop Ben from the clock tower. However, I don't think you should get rid of everyone who is a drain. It's one thing to remove all drains on the resources of the group for the betterment of the group. It's another to remove the guy that is actively causing peoples' deaths. It's not that Ben is a drain, but he is just too large of a liability to justify saving.

[Luigi01080]

Saved ben. Really i did want to drop him but i hadnt killed anyone in my playthrough and it just seemed not right to kill him because of a few slip ups. Crawford was wrong from the start and deserved the punishment it got when the walkers won.

[That1Guy]

I pulled him up. I did because he's a good person and not an a-hole like a certain someone. He might be stupid but I can't just kill him like that. I might have also done it because Kenny didn't want me to

[rachellouise85]

oh,I was going to just vote and leave x) anyway, I'm not going to start deciding who's useful or not.

I would like to know how people think that getting rid of Ben because they think he's a liability and couldn't pull his weight , is completely different from Crawford getting rid of people because they were a liability, or couldn't pull their own weight.

[IndigoHawk]

I didn't like Crawford. However, the idea that people could make the choice to join a community and live by strict rules to increase the odds of survival was ok. I don't think they deserved to die as long as they were keeping to themselves and not hurting people.

Unfortunately they were hurting people. They took all the good supplies, which made it harder for other people to live. They had rampant corruption, which hurt their own people. Their rules made their people miserable. They turned away children, elderly, and the sick, which is pretty much the same as a death sentence for those people.

So, the Crawford way didn't work, just like the St Johns didn't.

[Ninnuendo]

Ben
I've pretty much repeated this elsewhere but I saved Ben without even needing to think about it. All the mistakes he has made are done and killing him won't take that back.
The only pertinent question is whether he will continue to be a threat and does that justify letting him die. Ultimately I have to say no, you cant kill someone because of the mistakes they might make, this isn't Minority Report. He's well meaning and has the potential for both good and bad, the same as everyone else.

Crawford
Now this is a bit more difficult as a question.
Do I support Crawford as it was run? No, it was too severe and caused rebellion and it's own destruction.
Do I support Crawford as an idea? Hmm. There's something to be said for social evolution but it's a dangerous slope.
Ultimately no I can't support Crawford. I can agree with the separation and control of groups, according to status, but when it comes to letting people die depending on their usefulness, no.

[Milosuperspesh]

oddly i never thought of crawfords rules at all after the initial wtf was this guy on,

as for ben i accidently dropped him, cos i honestly mis read let him go as let him up, so my thoughts where kenny was already against lee from the whole duck scenario and he never let me forget it.

so even after talking him down on the train, still no love there.

so cos i've tried to save the right people in my first run,

true story.

will be 'saving him for clem soon'

[Ninnuendo]

Poll isn't quite going the way I expected, this could be interesting

[thestalkinghead]

i saved ben because making sure innocent people die is basically the opposite of what i want.

and the problem with crawford is that they missed the main point of why we are social animals that live and work together, and the point of that is to make a safe environment for our children and family to live in, what's the point of making a society that by it's own rules will have to kill itself in a few years, it's clearly the plan of an insane person that has no long term worth as a way to run a society.

[slough]

Crawford supported social Darwinism. Of course I don't agree with it, I don't feel like I need to explain myself further.

I've said time and again that I think Ben will redeem himself... but, if I'm going to be honest, a lot of my choices that I make in-game are more for storytelling reasons than choices I will actually make. I would have saved Ben if it was me, because he's a good kid and I can relate to feeling like a fuck-up sometimes, but the main factor for me deciding to save Ben is that it will (hopefully) lead to some interesting tensions in the next episode.

[Snake Liquid]

I reject Crawford's philosophy. The second we start adopting the reasoning that the weak must be exiled or killed is the moment that we are no different than the walkers. What's the point of survival if there are no children, no compassion, no care? The goal of humans is literally to pass on our genetics to the next generation. To reproduce. But that's only part of it.

If we are sacrificing the weak, the young and the ill to die, then what has humanity become? What has thousands of years of human evolution become if we revert back to mindless apes? It's the duty of the strong to PROTECT the weak. Even if they aren't able to fight or defend the walls against walkers, they can still provide aid and be useful members of the community. They still have immense potential.

The fact that Crawford turned those people away to the walkers is the entire reason why they failed. That's why the community only lasted a mere three months in the apocalypse. They gave up their humanity in exchange for safety, but in the end the trade caused their collapse.

That's why I've been a supporter of Ben this entire time. If you read back to my posts after Episode 3, I was always supporting him while about 80% of these forums wished death upon him. He may be an idiot, and he may not be survival oriented, but he has heart. The only reason he went along with the bandits was to help a friend, and then later to try and protect the group. He hasn't done anything malicious, and I see that he has the potential within him to become something more than a stupid kid. I'd save him again in Episode 5 if given the opportunity.

It's the same with Kenny. No matter how many times he just stands there while I'm attacked or subtly or flat out points out that I didn't support him during the Larry decision, I will ALWAYS save him. He's a member of MY group. He's a part of MY humanity, even if it's about to die in a maximum of 24 hours.

[Phoenix VII]

Giving Ben the boot doesn't equal supporting Crawford. Crawford had ridiculous standards as seen when they threw out Vernon's group even though their cancer was in remission. Ben wasn't only a deadweight, not only a drain on resources, he was a liability that almost got Lee's group destroyed in Crawford and is responsible for the deaths of 4 group members plus Brie and I had no intention of giving him another chance to destroy the group in the next episode. Sure, outside of his snarky attitude in the first half of Ep. 4 he's a well-mannered kid and not malicious, but that doesn't mitigate the results of his stupidity, and someone who consistently screws-up on the grand scale that Ben does is too dangerous to keep around.

[Viner16]

For some reason, I just wanted to vote support crawford/drop Ben after I voted cuz no one voted for it yet

[KabutoGodTier420]

Dropping Ben would go with any reasonable person's policy.

[NicoleRaye]

I wanted to drop Ben SO BADDDDD! But I noticed that most ppls playthroughs let him die and I wanted to see what happened if I saved him lol. I let him stay and watch the boat while me, Kenny, Christa, and Omid went to find Clementine so hopefully he don't let anything happen to the boat. I don't support Crawford what-so-ever so my vote was "Reject Crawford/Save Ben"

[Perfect_Cell]

He wanted to go. I figured this was the best ending I could send him out on. At least he had realised it was time to go

[Zeruis]

I pulled Ben up. It seems like I agree with Vernon and Molly's reasons for disliking Crawford. The place's rules were insane.

[Viser]

I disagree with Crawford. From an extreme survivalist's point of view maybe they could be right, but I agree with the other people, their rules were absolutely unreasonable.

I saved Ben. I don't expect him to do anything heroic or whatever, I just think it's not right to let him die like that when you can save him. Though I understand the people who let him die because they thought there was no time, or because they thought he was redeeming himself that way... I just don't think it's right

And well, I actually like Ben. By the end of episode 4, Kenny said he wasn't helping and we don't really see eye to eye on a lot of things, and I like Christa and Omid but I feel they're a bit distrustful towards the group, kinda feels like they're only coming with Lee because he's bit. But then there was Ben... I let him decide for himself if he wanted to come along and he said I had been good to him so he'd help me find Clem. I see him as Lee's friend by that point. Probably the only one Ben has (besides Clem), poor guy

[TWDFTW]

If I comment I don't want anyone quoting my reply with 'you sick murderer!'

I don't agree with Crawfords rules, it's stupid, having all those medical supplies stored up, for what?!?! They don't need it for anything, if they kick the people out because their a drain on their food, fine, but kicking someone out because their ill is just horrible. I'm not saying that chucking someone out, even if they are a drain on food is fine, but it's more of a reason than for medical problems.

I dropped Ben because he is a liability, he left Clementine to be eaten by loads of zombies on the street to save his own sorry arse, he indirectly caused the death of Duck, Katjaa and Carley/Doug, and what pisses me off the most, if Ben had grown some when Lilly gets everyone out of the RV onto the road, if Ben had of said something about him making the deal Carley wouldn't be dead and Doug deserved to live, and not jump in front of a bullet for that worthless piece of shit. (Based on my second save play through for a friend who wanted me to choose certain things)

There, and if I get you sick murderer again I will be annoyed because seriously I don't care if you think that, save your time.