KQ7 isn't really a "Roberta" game....

[MusicallyInspired]

He's more right than you're willing to admit, though the presence of hyperbole is not exaggerated (no pun intended).

[Blackthorne519]

Heh. This is amusing.

Bt

[MtnPeak]

I remember reading that Roberta wasn't happy with some of the game design choices in KQ7, but that she felt like it was time for the game to be guided by new people. I definitely agree that the game was likely less of a "Roberta" game than the others, even if she did end up becoming more involved in its development than originally planned.

Does anyone else get the impression that Lorelei Shannon is bitter today about her Sierra experience? At times she has seemed very terse when talking about her work on KQ7. But perhaps I am reading something into it that isn't there.

[MtnPeak]

Originally Posted by Blackthorne519

Yeah. In the end, who really gives a fuck?


Bt

Originally Posted by Anakin Skywalker

Why do you guys stick around here if:

A) You're "over" King's Quest and don't want anyone to ever make another KQ game?

B) You don't even like people discussing the old games, and have the attitude to "who gives a fuck?" about discussion of the old games.

Agreed. I've also wondered why some people are here mainly for the purpose of telling us all how little they care about discussing KQ-related topics.

Not a fan their stick-in-the-mud, wet blanket behavior, and I think it's good to call it out. Hopefully they try to be less of a wet blanket presence in the future.

[corruptbiggins]

Originally Posted by MtnPeak

Agreed. I've also wondered why some people are here mainly for the purpose of telling us all how little they care about discussing KQ-related topics.

Probably 'cos they're hoping that Telltale have cancelled production of their Kings Quest game so they can say 'nyah nyah told you so' when that is confirmed. Seems like that's the only thing that'll give them any joy.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Originally Posted by MusicallyInspired

He's more right than you're willing to admit, though the presence of hyperbole is not exaggerated (no pun intended).

No, actually, he really isn't. From all I have read and researched over many years, all things indicate to me that Roberta was responsible for KQ's 1-5 as the lead designer and director. They are HER games.

Even Scott Murphy, I believe it was, praised Roberta for being understanding as to how it was to have to pull a game out of your ass on demand, whereas the business type people like Ken were much less understanding of how stressful and how much pressure it was it is to just create a game on demand.

Admittedly, one thing Sierra was guilty of, even in the early days, was giving more PR and publicity and likely higher budgets to the KQ games, and probably giving Roberta more creative free reign than the other designers got. But this is understandable for several reasons, one being that KQ was Sierra's flagship series and probably their biggest selling adventure game series, and secondly that this was a series designed by the Bosses' wife.

From KQ6 onward is where it gets murky, as she herself admitted she felt she had used up her good ideas with KQ5 and was exhausted and didn't want to be pigeonholed into making KQ games forever, and wanted to hand the series over to other people to tinker with. In fact she went so far as just wanting to be nothing more than a creative consultant on KQ6...and being on the record with this. If nothing else, I credit Roberta as being a very honest and open person. Her husband, not so much....

How responsible was Roberta for KQ6, KQ7 and KQ8, truly? We'll never know for sure, but I think it is pretty clear that those three games are both very different from the first five and also have credited input from other Sierra designers.

I believe Lamb feels that Roberta contributed little or nothing based on Josh's comments about Sierra's "Star System", which had an influence on Sierra's marketing of mid '90s games like Freddie Pharkas and SQ5, but I don't feel that that system came into play until around the same time as the move to Bellevue, as the "Suits" and a more business oriented vibe began influencing the company.

And I feel that the 'Star System' was more a marketing, promotional thing than any cover up thing. The Star System wasn't a thing where "Jane Jensen creates a KQ game and Roberta gets all the credit for it", it was more a marketing thing, as in "Roberta Williams' King's Quest VII" when in actuality her level of involvement in that game is questionable.

Even on games where the Star System comes into play, the right people are still given credit in the games themselves, just not in the marketing. Scott Murphy was given credit in Sierra's marketing and promotional materials for SQ6, but in the game credits itself, both he and Josh share the design credit.

Read any interview with any Sierra designer; From around 1993/1994 onward, there was a much more business-like, bottom line oriented approach to all the series and to the company itself, and many executive bureaucrat types became ever more influential in the company, and I believe that the "Star System" really began around this point. By 1994, especially with the move to Bellevue (which everyone has said changed Sierra totally), Roberta Williams was more than just a designer; She was a brand. In 1988, I don't think the "name" mattered. But in 1994, due to the way Sierra had promoted it's designers as being 'celebrities' of a sort, you couldn't have a KQ game without Roberta's name being marketed on the product.

In 1990, it was pretty different. I think Josh himself has stated that when he came on board, in that year, it was still the same sort of carefree, sort of fun mindset that the company had been known for, but he came in as that era was beginning to end.

I'd really like to discuss this further. I've stated my position and given, in detail, why I feel that KQ1-KQ5 are Roberta games, that she led the design and writing and whatnot and was basically the leading creative force on those games. From KQ6 to KQ8, she was probably given more credit than she was due.

But Lamb's position seems to be that outside of KQ1, she had very little to do with the KQ series creatively speaking. If he could expand on why he thinks so, without resorting to acting in a troll-like manner, this could be an interesting discussion.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Originally Posted by MtnPeak

Does anyone else get the impression that Lorelei Shannon is bitter today about her Sierra experience? At times she has seemed very terse when talking about her work on KQ7. But perhaps I am reading something into it that isn't there.

What happened was, Phantasmagoria 2 was given to Lorelei Shannon to design. When it didn't sell as well as the first Phantasmagoria did, Ken and others were quick to blame Shannon--even in interviews long after it came out--as the reason it didn't sell. She was sort of made into a scape coat for that game's failure. Which can make anyone understandably bitter.

[MusicallyInspired]

Guys, come on. We're not bad guys. We're not trolls. We're not raining on your parades. We share the same hopes that you do mostly. We're content to let KQ lie and that's about the only difference here when all is said and done and everything examined underneath the surface. If a new King's Quest was made and it was made well by all our standards, we'd all love it as much as you. We're just not pining for it like you are. Seriously, that's the only difference between us, that little detail. We're ok with things staying the way they are and we actually believe this is a more healthy way to look at it. We don't believe it's a cardinal sin to think otherwise, like you seem to be condemning us for. You're painting us as these evil dictators who want to taint everybody's opinion with their own colours instead of encouraging free thought and free speech. Say whatever you want, for goodness' sake. Believe whatever you want. All we have been doing was trying to explain why it might not be a great idea and why it might possibly not happen. We only do so based on our own experiences and the way things like this have factually and historically played out in the past. Yes, Lamb likes to poke fun at people but that's just who he is and he doesn't truly mean to offend or demean anybody.

Yet despite these things you seem to think you have to "fight the man" or "beat the system" by being a martyr for the cause or something and crying out against us like we're the Sheriff of Nottingham and Prince John himself. Fight whatever cause you wish to, don't call us the enemy. We're not trying to STOP you and quiet your voices out of existence. We're just trying to bring you down to earth a little bit by considering the facts of the gaming industry right now. Since that isn't every going to happen and you won't listen to reason of any kind (or even thought out and pertinent ideas and examples) and instead proceed to blame us for being evil and wanting to destroy everybody's hopes and dreams, you have turned into the troll here. I'm sick and tired of being labeled like that without being taken seriously and without calm intelligent consideration. It's clear nobody wants intelligent conversation or opposing ideas of any kind here other than your own (who's the dictator here?). So have your own little club where you can believe that a new and great King's Quest game is beyond the shadow of a doubt coming down the line (eventually, however long it takes), that ActiVision isn't in the gaming business for money and wants more than anything to keep good classic franchises alive (adventures most of all) by ignoring the largest demographic they've been targeting over the last decade and a half, fairies are real, pigs can fly, and unicorns not only exist but are a source of power for lord Voldemort.

I'm done. It's clear nobody is welcome here except those who share your opinions on King's Quest. Anybody else is a mindless troll.

[Chyron8472]

Originally Posted by MusicallyInspired

I'm done. It's clear nobody is welcome here except those who share your opinions on King's Quest. Anybody else is a mindless troll.

It's not about that at all. It's about wanting to have friendly conversation about King's Quest. It's about how any conversation about the possibility of a future King's Quest game, on the forums for said game, is shot down by people whom it would seem are really not interested in King's Quest anymore.

Many conversations have been talked about at length, so people gripe when someone brings them up again, whether they be someone like Anakin who is trying desperately to foster any conversation, or else like MtnPeak, who is new to the discussion and wants to join in on what he missed.

On the other hand, conversations about new material are also shot down because people also gripe about how KQ is dead and should be left to rot in peace.


This isn't about objecting to opposing opinion. This is about the fanbase trying to connect; and how people who were once fans, yet are now not, are lingering, in a forum for a game they don't care about, to seemingly only vent their bitterness about it.


Suffice it to say that this is about the fact that one wonders why someone, who has nothing better to do than tell people to shut the fuck up about KQ already, would bother hanging around here at all instead of on the forums for a game they do care about.

[MtnPeak]

I agree with chyron. I enjoy reading the comments and opinions of other KQ fans. I am open to all kinds of differing viewpoints. What can annoy me, however, is a repeated expression of a blasé or indifferent attitude.

Are you eagerly awaiting Telltale's KQ, or are you a KQ fan who regards TTG as the enemy of true adventure gaming? Either way, speak your mind, have at it; I enjoy and appreciate your input. But to come on a KQ forum and, essentially, declare that you couldn't care less what happens to KQ just rubs me the wrong way.

[Lambonius]

This has to be the most fun I've had on a KQ related forum in weeks.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Lambonius

This has to be the most fun I've had on a KQ related forum in weeks.

Could you respond to my post, and explain in detail why you feel Roberta only deserves credit for KQ1?

[Anakin Skywalker]

Originally Posted by chyron8472

it's not about that at all. It's about wanting to have friendly conversation about king's quest. It's about how any conversation about the possibility of a future king's quest game, on the forums for said game, is shot down by people whom it would seem are really not interested in king's quest anymore.

Many conversations have been talked about at length, so people gripe when someone brings them up again, whether they be someone like anakin who is trying desperately to foster any conversation, or else like mtnpeak, who is new to the discussion and wants to join in on what he missed.

On the other hand, conversations about new material are also shot down because people also gripe about how kq is dead and should be left to rot in peace.


This isn't about objecting to opposing opinion. This is about the fanbase trying to connect; and how people who were once fans, yet are now not, are lingering, in a forum for a game they don't care about, to seemingly only vent their bitterness about it.


Suffice it to say that this is about the fact that one wonders why someone, who has nothing better to do than tell people to shut the fuck up about kq already, would bother hanging around here at all instead of on the forums for a game they do care about.

+100

[Lambonius]

Originally Posted by Anakin Skywalker

Could you respond to my post, and explain in detail why you feel Roberta only deserves credit for KQ1?

I think that the Star System to which you refer is proof enough that you can't trust officially sanctioned interviews or publications, because EVERYTHING that Sierra put out was filtered through the lens of marketing. The problem with your unflagging faith in Roberta is that it's entirely based on those types of sources, which all need to be at least partially considered as marketing spin.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Lambonius

I think that the Star System to which you refer is proof enough that you can't trust officially sanctioned interviews or publications, because EVERYTHING that Sierra put out was filtered through the lens of marketing. The problem with your unflagging faith in Roberta is that it's entirely based on those types of sources, which all need to be at least partially considered as marketing spin.

I don't put my faith in those sources. I look at things like the booklet credits or ingame credits--Those are usually where the truth lies. And I look into a game's development history and all available other sources.

Like I said in my post, the Star System was mainly a promotional and marketing thing. It didn't extend to someone not getting in game or booklet credit for their work or any sort of cover up.

Like SQ6. Sierra touted it in marketing stuff as a Scott solo game after Josh quit Sierra, but the booklet and ingame themselves credits reflect the truth and give both Scott and Josh credit for designing the game, which was the truth.

I just feel that on every game until VI, Roberta's involvement was exactly as described in the ingame or booklet credits--She led those games creatively as the designer and director and writer. From VI onward, her level of influence is unclear, especially with KQ7.

That's where my faith in her comes from--the stuff she's credited with not in InterAction or wherever, but in the games themselves. I think there is a clear direction and a clear writing style and whatnot that can be seen from 1-5. A general way the games are built and written, and I feel those games are the handiwork of Roberta.

After VI that changes. VII, for example, probably had Roberta's direction in basic design ideas and characters and art direction and story ideas, but the actual final product was written by Lorelei Shannon as credited in the game. VIII is more Roberta's original ideas for and spearheading of the game getting railroaded by a bunch of other people's ideas and many other factors.

[BagginsKQ]

More importantly if you can, search up a former employee's internet pages, sometimes they include resumes. There is also information to be had on such sites as linked-in where the former sierra employees have put up their credentials, and what they did on each game. Sometimes get some good date information too.