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US Goverment Shutdown [Discussion]

posted by fusedmass BANNED on - last edited - Viewed by 3K users

I'm fairly interested in politics. Perhaps this bores some people to death. However since I love the games, this site provides. I thought I would try an experiment with this thread. Looking over the rules for this site. There is nothing against discussing politics.

With that being said., Obamacare or the Affordable Health Care act will go into effect today. Last night Republicans refused to pass a clean resolution that funds the government unless Obamacare is delayed (Translation: delayed they can elect enough republicans to override the President's veto)

They would not accept anything less then a one year delay on Obamacare and a repeal of the tax on medical devices that would actually saved the country money. (estimated 33 billion dollars.) Its projected that with Obamacare it actually saves more in the economy and it would add more to the debt by trying to repeal it.

These people are so divided. They would would actually refuse to fund the government. Rather then vote to keep the lights on. What do you make of the current state of politics in the US government. Do you blame the Republicans, or the Liberals, please detail your answer.

Thank you.

Currently I started a petition to recall Senator Ted Cruz. If you share my common sense point of view. Read everything in this thread first. Then make a choice on your own if you wish to support my petition to recall him.

http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/recall-senator-ted-cruz-1

Thank you.

84 Comments
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    fusedmass BANNED

    Here is what some of the biggest newspapers had to say about the shut down.

    The Wall Street Journal:

    We support the Republican effort to get the best deal they can, especially in the face of Mr. Obama's cynicism. But sooner or later the GOP will have to fund the government and raise the debt ceiling that expires two weeks from now. Republicans will have made their point about fighting hard on principle while noting that to achieve more on ObamaCare they'll need more Senate Republicans after 2014 and a GOP President after 2016. Unlike much of what you hear these days out of Washington, this has the added advantage of being true.

    USA Today:

    In this case, however, the "they're all bums" reaction is off-base. This shutdown, the first in 17 years, isn't the result of two parties acting equally irresponsibly. It is the product of an increasingly radicalized Republican Party, controlled by a disaffected base that demands legislative hostage-taking in an effort to get what it has not been able to attain by the usual means: winning elections

    New York Times:

    By Tuesday morning, the leadership failure of Speaker John Boehner was complete. In encouraging the impossible quest of House Republicans to dismantle health care reform, he pushed the country into a government shutdown that will now begin to take a grievous economic toll.

    Washington Post:

    Americans' respect for their Congress has, sad to say, diminished in recent years. But citizens still expect a minimal level of competence and responsibility: Pay the bills and try not to embarrass us in front of the world.

    By those minimal standards, this Congress is failing. More specifically, the Republican leaders of the House of Representatives are failing. They should fulfill their basic duties to the American people or make way for legislators who will.

    Chicago Tribune:

    We're debt hawks. The unconscionable failure of Democrats and Republicans to deal with the growth of entitlement spending that has fueled the nearly $17 trillion in federal debt creates its own economic peril. The most frustrating thing is that a resolution of this impasse almost certainly won't deal with that entitlement crisis.

    LA Times:

    The GOP's clear objective is to dismantle the act, not to improve it — and the single-minded focus on that goal is what has led to the partial government shutdown that began Tuesday. Democrats can hardly be blamed for refusing to bargain over how to sabotage the law before it fully takes effect.

    Chicago Sun-Times:

    The federal government is partially shut down because an extreme faction of House Republicans is using its leverage to try to derail the Affordable Care Act, also known as Obamacare.

    New York Daily News:

    The elderly veterans who stormed the closed World War II Memorial in Washington on Tuesday showed more class, sense and spine than all of the Republicans who led Congress into shutting down the federal government.

    New York Post:

    Today the ObamaCare health exchanges go up. Meanwhile, the federal government appears to be shutting down. Once again, Washington’s got it completely backward.

    We’ve long been skeptical of the defunding strategy, for one reason: Republicans don’t have the votes in the Senate

    Denver Post:

    Incredibly, Republican hard-liners have triggered a shutdown in pursuit of a hopeless quest to delay or even defund the Affordable Care Act.

    This is a battle Republicans cannot win.

  • And there's this from James Fellows at the Atlantic.

    Your False-Equivalence Guide to the Days Ahead

    "As a matter of journalism, any story that presents the disagreements as a "standoff," a "showdown," a "failure of leadership," a sign of "partisan gridlock," or any of the other usual terms for political disagreement, represents a failure of journalism and an inability to see or describe what is going on... This isn't "gridlock." It is a ferocious struggle within one party, between its traditionalists and its radical factions, with results that unfortunately can harm all the rest of us — and, should there be a debt default, could harm the rest of the world too."

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      fusedmass BANNED

      I actually did prefer when Republicans were just fighting over the budget. At least then, they were not trying to destroy the government in the process. These Tea Party members could watch Congress burn, for all they care. They have no respect for how the government functions as a body.

      I must place some of the blame directly on Fox News. If they were not always spreading lies and misinformation. This extreme faction might not have risen through the ranks and elected into office. Fox News so desperate to rip the Dems, they created indirectly another party so extreme they would hurt Wall Street interest and even big corporations. (Something the Republicans always stood for)

      As bad as they are and what Republicans stand for. At least they didn't want to tear the government down. I consider the Tea Party Domestic Terrorists. They are inflicting the greatest harm. In front of the entire world we are an embarrassing waiting game.

      Obama will not reverse his signature health care law. House Speaker refuses to bring the bill to the floor. As bad as I want the Republicans look, I think its not safe to keep going at this pace. Not saying Obama will cave that will not happen. So House MUST approve the bill or they will destroy America cemented in its extreme hatred over this health care act.

      • It would almost be fun to watch the train wreck that is the current Republican party go through these very public temper tantrums if it didn't involve taking the US economy hostage along with any chance of a functional government. I think perhaps the biggest threat is the precedent it sets for the future. It's just the Republicans behaving this poorly now, but what about a little further down the road should a Republican ever be elected (or more likely elected through redistricting and voter suppression) back into Presidency. We didn't need another filibuster to allow minority parties to completely bog down our entire government process, but I'll bet you this sort of hostage taking becomes the new political normal. From one manufactured crisis to the next it seems.

        Fox News certainly contributed to this horrible mess. I almost feel bad for Republicans who are forced to go to these ridiculous extremes in order to be elected in the primaries by pandering to a delusional base fed a fact-free diet from a number of right wing talking points. If you say something even remotely rational, like say believing in the science behind global warming, your Republican political career is over. And to be fair, it's got to be difficult to run against Obama. He's run a better war on terror, deported more people, launched more drones, drilled for more oil, done a better job with the economy, taxes remain at historic lows, government spending is being reduced, shut down more marijuana shops... I mean what really can they get him on? His biggest achievement is the health care law based around the individual mandate that was a Republican plan for decades. Just imagine trying to run as a Republican today. If you're remotely rational you come across sounding like Obama and you'll be eaten alive in those primaries.

        The only upside to this debacle is that Obama desperately needs a functional Congress, and up until this government shutdown I had a very dim view of those prospects in 2014. The midterm elections always have a terrible turn out, and the fewer voters the worse it is for Democrats. But now, it's almost as if the Republicans are just handing the next election over to the Democrats. Then again I never under estimate the ability of American voters to completely forget about basic details about what happened only months earlier and for small groups of dedicated Republicans to constantly vote against their own self-interests.

  • I was going to go through and make my own arguments but since fusedmass has done a pretty good job and I may not be coming back to this forum after this post, here's a few last words:

    Some notes on what the ACA actually does, and how it will affect you: http://www.doctoroz.com/videos/affordable-care-act-what-you-need-to-know

    Also, reality has a liberal bias.

    • I'd comment, but then I'd have to click that link and read something to understand what you're saying, and then formulate a response. The barrier to entry in terms of participation in this conversation is WAY too high, that kind of bar would require reading, thinking, and writing. What do you think I am, NOT an American?!

      I'm just going to click the thumb button that correlates to whatever prejudice I brought with me into the thread.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSeoi1fE25A

    The more things change, the more they stay the same.

  • All politicians are wankers.

  • If you are tired of the same old news media and "comedy" shows that exist largely as an echo chamber arm of the Democrat Party, demonizing political opposition and making excuse after excuse for Obama, you should check out http://www.reason.com

    They have had a lot of great, intelligent coverage of Obamacare. Here's a recent roundup of analysis:

    What Obamacare Will Do For (Or To) You Conservative and libertarian health policy experts weigh in: http://reason.com/archives/2013/10/01/what-should-we-expect-from-obamacare

    And, just for fun, here's a little goof on Obama admin's claim that Obamacare should be likened to Apple:

    http://youtu.be/9A46YDNRKyI

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    fusedmass BANNED

    No offense to MtnPeak. He seems to be living on a different planet. It's like we're having two seperate conversations. In mine, The Republicans refused to pass a clean resolution to fund the government. Unless Dems Negotiated with Republican to strip away funding from Obamacare. In his point of view, Harry Reid (Dem Majoroity leader) shut the government down and we have a duty to stop millions of Americans from having affordable health care insurance.

    Even though. I linked a quote from a Republican directly, complaining that hes being disrespected and he doesn't even know what he wants out of the shut down. Proves how clueless these people really are. They tried to shut it down to stop Obamacare. That failed. What exactly is there objective now, other then holding hundreds of millions of Americans hostage..because they feel disrespected.

    This quote says everything about the Republican shut down, that you need to know.

    Marlin Stutzman shutdown

    House Republicans are continuing to play hardball in negotiations over the spending bill that precipitated the government shutdown on Oct. 1, apparently out of fear that compromise would weaken their power.

    "We're not going to be disrespected," Rep. Marlin Stutzman (R-Ind.) told The Washington Examiner. "We have to get something out of this. And I don't know what that even is."

    The GOP spent much of Wednesday blaming President Barack Obama and the Democrats for the effects of the shutdown, which led to the furlough of 800,000 workers and the closure of numerous government services. They failed to mention that the spending bill didn't pass because they loaded the bill with restrictions on the Affordable Care Act, a law that passed in 2010 and was found constitutional by the Supreme Court earlier this year.

    In an effort to end the shutdown, Democrats are seeking the passage of a "clean" continuing resolution to fund the government while further negotiations on the budget take place. Most, if not all, Democrats would vote for it, and enough Republicans are publicly now on board to pass it.

    At the time of this writing, however, such a vote is still being thwarted by the GOP leadership.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/03/marlin-stutzman-government-shutdown_n_4034123.html?utm_hp_ref=politics

  • LOL say what you will about MtnPeak but come on... if nothing else his posts are worth a chuckle. Like this comment?

    "If you are tired of the same old news media ... demonizing political opposition and making excuse after excuse for Obama"

    From the conservatives who sent political ads for John McCain featuring Obama near airliners suggesting he was a terrorist, who still ask questions about his birth certificate, who think he's some sort of Kenyan muslim socialist... but it's the OTHER guys who are doing the demonizing.

    Let's see what reality has to say about this claim... from Kantar Media/Campaign Media Analysis Group, which tracks political ad spending.

    "70% of ads run by Democrats in the general election campaign for president have been POSITIVE in nature, while 73% of commercials run by Republicans were NEGATIVE"

    But of course, I'm sure his post wasn't serious. It was just another attempt to demonstrate where he's fed his news, once again from conservative media.

    • User Avatar Image
      fusedmass BANNED

      It is without a doubt very amusing, how Republicans view the media. They call it the "Elite Liberal Media" because they expose the lies they have been flaunting. Media knows exactly who's fault it is. In fact, there was an open mic comment between Rand Paul and Minority Senate Leader Mitch. Here's what they said.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eziI4h3J0Eg

      If that wasn't bad enough. The media is confronting the Republicans on their lies. This entire thing is clear to me. And I don't work in politics.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag5AMqve5ZU#t=409

      Every day this goes on. The Republicans look worst and worst. They are getting hammered left and right. Not just by Dem. But in reality in General. The only network that isn't exposing their lies is Fox News (What a surprise)

      MtnPeak, gives an inside look what Republicans really believe. It's scary and both amusing at the same time.

      • This got me thinking about how every conservative I've ever met or talked to gets their news exclusively from right wing news sources. Fox News, Breitbart, Reason. Yet, of all the liberals I know they get their news from the news organizations that are usually the most unbiased and reputable sources. Places like the New York Times, NPR or even the BBC. Very few seem to even watch MSNBC, and those who do typically do it after they've read the news from other outlets and seem to view it more as entertainment.

        I guess it's no surprise why discussions like this always end the way they do. They've gotten so tired of reality constantly proving them wrong, that they've simply made their own news stations to constantly tell them only what they want to hear. They did a study that demonstrated conservatives were the only group to lose faith in science over the past 40 years. There has been a 25% drop amongst conservatives who trust in science, while moderates and liberals levels of trust remained the same.

        The author had this to say, "It kind of began with the loss of Barry Goldwater and the construction of Fox News and all these [conservative] think tanks. The perception among conservatives is that they're at a disadvantage, a minority. It's not surprising that the conservative subculture would challenge what's viewed as the dominant knowledge production groups in society - science and the media."

        No wonder we can't even agree on facts, they no longer believe in science. For them it's all about "truthiness".

        "Truthiness is a quality characterizing a "truth" that a person making an argument or assertion claims to know intuitively "from the gut" or because it "feels right" without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or facts."

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          fusedmass BANNED

          To be honest. I am tired, of Senators that we elect for the people, by the people. Going to Congress and causing harm to the exact same people. They promised to protect. I live in Texas. Ted Cruz said "People don't work for Politicians, Politicians work for the people" however roughly estimated eight hundred thousand people in Congress are laid out.

          He is the leading force behind the shut down. Standing for 21 hours before the CR(Clean Resolution Vote) now that government has passed the deadline. He has no exit stragery other then to "get something out of it". You don't get something out of it for doing your job. A CR has nothing to do with Obamacare.

          Its used as leverage to get what you want. We are cemented in Gridlock. The freshman Senator from Texas, in my humble point of view. Is not doing what the people elected him to do. That's why with the help of Move on. I started a petition on Move On. To recall Ted Cruz. Even if it doesn't work. At least an effort is being made.

          If you feel so encouraged. then please sign here. As Obama once said. Change doesn't happen from washing inside out. Change comes from the people to Washington.

          http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/recall-senator-ted-cruz-1

          • Sounds like even crazy ol' anti-tax GOP strategist Grover Norquist wants him gone. Grover just said "He pushed House Republicans into traffic and wandered away" and plenty more about Cruz.

            And you'd think rallying behind a Canadian would've been a winner for the GOP. Still curious why the GOP doesn't seem nearly as obsessed with his birth certificate... at least Obama's was actually from America.

            I'm with you on your petition, but I'm not interested in signing up with MoveOn. I just spent the past six months trying to close out those sorts of things after constantly being overwhelmed in my inbox and mailbox. Sign up for one and before you know it you've got like sixteen different groups sending your newsletters and constant requests for $3 or $5. And then there's what they do with your information when they have it...

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              fusedmass BANNED

              I'm interpreting the laws for Texas. 19 states you can recall senators. They claim in Texas, you cannot recall a Senator. However, there are two ways around this. You could start a petition draft under another state and deliver it to Texas. Or the House can do it with two third of the vote.

              Since Ted Cruz pretty much stood for 21 hours on the Senate floor. Then walked away while the battle went on. Perhaps I should change my petition to asking the House to remove him. Gaining enough signatures from Texans in the process. At least it raises awareness.

              Cruz not entirety to blame. The GOP went along with his speech. Those tea party extreme fanatics holding America hostage. I'd like to say. He doesn't speak for the rest of Texas.

              • Ted Cruz is a hero. He speaks for me and millions of others. It is refreshing to see a conservative politician with conviction doing what he was elected to do. That's right. He was elected to fight Obamacare every step of the way, and bless him for following through. I don't suppose any of you here were too bothered when Obamacare was being forced through by Pelosi and Reid (Obama couldn't be bothered with the legislative details, if you'll remember... I think he had some celebrity worship music concerts and golf to attend to) against the country's wishes. I love Ted Cruz because he is smarter than all of the Democrat Party combined and doesn't get intimidated or back down in the face of the demonization heaped on him by the Obama-supporting news media. If the Obama propaganda MSNBC channel hosts are getting their panties in a bunch over Cruz, that means he's doing something right!

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                  fusedmass BANNED

                  Actually he is not. I dislike him so much. That I not only started that petition. I called my local newspaper today and explained the situation to them. I asked if they would be interested in a story. You know what. They are having a reporter call me tomorrow and I'm going there to have my picture taken. That's right. I'm going to be in my local newspaper in Texas, speaking against Ted Cruz.

                  When your done with that. Obama has laid out a nice speech today. I seriously suggest you watch both videos in full length, then kindly respond.

                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_yhwXFfvDk

                  • Ok, I didn't realize you started the petition. Well, that's your right.

                    Here's what I really think: many Democrats who otherwise wouldn't want the national government assuming so much control over our healthcare only feel inclined to want to defend Obamacare for partisan reasons. If you called it BushCare they'd say HECK NO. They listen to Daily Show and parrot the trendy liberal lines. Still, the law is less popular than you might think among Democrat voters. This thing is going to go down because Democrat voters will increasingly oppose it.

                    When you're losing your job/work hours and insurance plan and seeing other people get subsidies without having to verify their income, when you're paying more for insurance as a result of Obamacare which is really one big tax according to the Supreme Court, and to say nothing of quality and availability of care, it won't matter how the Daily Show mocks this or that politician. The Democrats are hoping to get as many people hooked on the subsidy as they can, and if enough don't sign up then it won't work. It's kind of sad how they lie to sell it.

                    • If you don't like it being called Obamacare, then don't. It's called the Affordable Care Act. And it ALREADY PASSED. Talking about implementing it is moot. Talking about paying for it SHOULD be moot.

                      This shutdown is not about the Affordable Care Act anyway. It's about getting back at the President and being purposefully disagreeable to the Democrats.

                      Stop playing the blame game. Stop listening to Fox News and Rush Limbaugh. If providing health care to millions of WORKING people who couldn't otherwise afford it is a bad idea, then we can alter it or change it or improve it later. But it hasn't even been active for a week yet.

                      This shutdown and these threats are just Tea Party spite. I wish you'd shut up about whether the Affordable Care Act should be implemented. It already has been. Period. Your congressmen were not elected to behave like babies. We should expect better of these people than to threaten us like this.

              • Don't look now, but you may have another Cruz on your hands. Some people think his father should run for the other seat from Texas. Wouldn't that be great? It's not hard to see where Ted gets it from. The 80-year-old Rafael can sure work the crowd: http://youtu.be/bsCXmDzJ53o

            • Norquist isn't a strategist. He's an open borders and tax reform activist who makes candidates sign his pledge. His going after Cruz will only strengthen Cruz's standing among the base who votes in midterms.

              And please make as many Moveon petitions as you can. Being hated and feared by Moveon.org types is the best help Cruz could get among Republican voters. The only people moved by that stuff are partisan far left-wing people who would never vote for him anyway. If you really want to do damage to Cruz, have an anti-conservative site like that endorse him.

              • User Avatar Image
                fusedmass BANNED

                He isn't feared. That's the problem you seriously don't understand. He urged Republicans "Fight Obamacare, even though it passed both the House and Senate, upheld by the Supreme Court. Stay strong, hold Americans Hostage and we will win" guess what. Obamacare is still here regardless.

                Now Republicans have no chips to bargain with at all. They keep saying, "we want to negoiate on a law that passed 5 years ago" Rand Paul was caught on live mic spilling his guts about "he thinks they are going to win" I don't know what planet you are living on. It certainty isn't this one.

                No one fears Ted Cruz. We think he's a complete wacko Tea Party extremist who rather make thousands of programs and millions of Americans suffer like a spoiled little child, acting like a dictator simply because he didn't get his way. To call him a clown. Would be an insult. To clowns.

  • I have something I know you guys will like. Take a look at what the official telephone hotline number for the disastrous Obamacare spells out: Language warning. http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/3/naughty-number-obamacare-hotlines-vulgar-suggestio/

    Absolutely classic. And truthful about what the law does.

    • The number is 1-800-318-2596.

      3(DEF) 1(no character) 8(TUV) 2(ABC) 5(JKL) 9(WYZ) 6(MNO)

      Usually when writing "words" in phone numbers, people don't use the junk character 1(Just call 1-800-F1UCK-YO doesn't have much of a ring to it), and I've never seen "Yo" used to replace "You", but sure I guess?

      It's a really dumb stretch, honestly.

    • User Avatar Image
      fusedmass BANNED

      Seriously MtnPeak.

      I don't know whats wrong with you. You Republicans chest pound that you want to save money. It's costing 33 million dollars a day for the government shut down. How about that you want more money to bring down our debt. You would remove tax on medical devices for big corporations. The fact you believe Ted Cruz a freshman Senator is some modern day hero. Makes me seriously wonder about you.

      If you haven't noticed. Most Americans blame Republicans for this mess. They are holding hostage programs that usually get passed, to get their way. This is a five year fight. They seriously need to look at the millions of American people and programs. It's a shock to me the government hasn't yet been overthrown by the people, considering they cannot even do their job.

    • Oh, shut up already, MtnPeak. Stop being so spiteful and bitter.

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    Jennifer Moderator

    I'm going to go ahead and close this, since it's degrading fast. Everything that needs to be said about the topic has already been said.

This discussion has been closed.